Banking Credit Card real-world rate "MEP" transaction repo (Dec2023)

[Wally]

40% is absolutely not crazy, though. many people have been doing less, like 20%, for many years. cops, judges, realtors, notaries, etc. - no one likes to talk about any of this, except for BuySellBA

Sorry but you are wrong. Not many only use 40%. You haven't been in Argentina long but you act like you have. 40% declaring that low is reckless. You have only been here a short amount of time. You are going to get wrecked if you keep doing things that are that far in black. ARCA knows things go on but they aren't stupid. Declaring that low is just stupid.

It is very very common to declare lower. That goes on all the time. My wife's family owns dozens of properties here and they used a fake lower price but they did not use 40% of the true price. They have a system with ARCA and they know what price a property is listed for. It is all tracked now. So automatically when the property finally goes through the registry, ARCA will flag properties that are a certain % below what it was listed for. It might take a while to catch up but they are going to people that are declaring much lower than the list price. Things are changing.

Did you get your title deed yet @StatusNomadicus? Just because others are doing silly things declaring so low doesn't mean it's a good idea for you to too.

 

[Jeb Spencer]

i wanted to pay directly in Crypto, which they couldn't accept, s

I don't know of any developers that will take crypto. I remember going back in posts from when you first posted people told you that people here do not want to deal with crypto. It's mostly all cash here.

While I disagree with @StatusNomadicus sometimes, he made many great points in the above post.

Great post @StatusNomadicus!

Agree with you Tony. Some of the posts are very good and some just don't agree. Lots of good points.

RIP, especially since yesterday was Mother's Day in the US, and you are a good person for pausing life to handle family stuff. we will be here in Argentina when you're done 🙂 sounds like you didn't lose much money (you made some? i'm not that interested to try to do the math), but agreed i would NEVER do any of this remotely, and wouldn't try anything at all in Argentina without a local wife or family, or in my case unless it was "free" money from Bitcoin and zero risk, UNLESS it was through @earlyretirement @BuySellBA - no one else would be honest with you and support before and after.

Sorry to hear about your mother @Canada Goose. It is admirable to do what you did. I went through the same thing a few years ago and it was a full time job just dealing with the estate. Glad you made money on the deal when all was said and done. You bought at a good time. What StatusNoadicus says is valuable. Never try to navigate this remotely without help from family or someone you can trust. I have had so many bad experiences in Argentina when I tried to figure out things on my own.

 

[JonJLA]

Thanks for explaining this so detailed. They told me if I bought a new pozo unit I could sell it any time before it's done or even after it's done. I'm looking at a studio unit and even on that if I prepay ahead of time they will pay me $300 a month until it is done. I have the cash so might just do that. Sounds like the price of the m2 will keep going up for the next 3 years so seems like a great deal to lock in the price, make some cash and I can always sell tax free.

I didn't know Mike was building his own hotel! I probably can't afford that but will ask him about it. Thanks!

I bought 2 apartments in Palermo Uno many years ago at pozo. I did it through @BuySellBA. It was ridiculous the price I paid. It was very low. Around $50,000 each. By the time it was finished a few years later the price skyrocketed. They kept asking me the entire time if I wanted to sell my units. I did end up selling one in 2018 but kept one.

Real estate is always about location, location, location. You can get stuck never being able to sell I heard in places like Mendoza. My friend told me that a property can sit on the market for years and years without being able to exit. No thanks!

Agree with this. It's always better to pay more and buy in hot locations. It is different if you are buying to live. It sounds like @StatusNomadicus wasn't just buying as an investment but buying to live. Sounds like he loves Mendoza so that was the right call for him. Mendoza is a great city. Enjoyed my visits there. Very livable.

i've talked to dozens of people in 3 provinces and aside from earlyretirement, zero people say to declare 100% - any Argentine is going to do what 99% of people do here, declare the lowest possible and hope for reforms in the future. as my Escribana said, i would be literally the only house in many kilometers with a value of 133k USD when every other neighbor is in the 15k-60k range. you'd stand-out a ton, and will pay more taxes, and if i had done my Title in Bitcoin they were even more worried about having ARCA/AFIP/property tax folks being more nosy about my sale. /shrug

I don't think 100% is the norm except on new constructions. I declared 100% on my units that I bought and I also bought through GyD. They developed my units in Palermo Uno. Mike mostly buys with them. I remember another tower that they offered me in Palermo Soho and that was also by them. They have been around in BA forever.

I also think 40% is too low based on escribanos that I spoke to when I was buying mine. I sold one of my apartments in Palermo Uno and the buyer wouldn't buy it unless I agreed to record a lower price. I had no big incentive to list lower because there was no capital gains taxes in Argentina back then. Now there is 15% capital gains tax but I am grandfathered in as I bought so long ago so I don't have capital gains taxes. My lawyer told me it is very common to list lower but ideally not lower than 65% to 70% of the actual price.

It is very very common to declare lower. That goes on all the time. My wife's family owns dozens of properties here and they used a fake lower price but they did not use 40% of the true price. They have a system with ARCA and they know what price a property is listed for. It is all tracked now. So automatically when the property finally goes through the registry, ARCA will flag properties that are a certain % below what it was listed for. It might take a while to catch up but they are going to people that are declaring much lower than the list price. Things are changing.

This is what my lawyer told me. She said that AFIP does have a database of what listing prices are and then when the title deed is done processed, they will check and see what the final closing price is. They generally know what prices m2 are going for and what the listed price is. If there is too big of a gap you can get audited. Not sure what big risks the seller has. She told me the big risk is to the realtor and the Escribano on the transaction as they are putting their license at risk.

I don't know in practice how much risk there is but it does sound like they have a mechanism to track this and 40% is very low. Much lower than what lawyers/accountants and what BuySellBA told me. They told me it's not ideal to go lower than 70%.

 

[earlyretirement]

RIP, especially since yesterday was Mother's Day in the US, and you are a good person for pausing life to handle family stuff. we will be here in Argentina when you're done 🙂 sounds like you didn't lose much money (you made some? i'm not that interested to try to do the math), but agreed i would NEVER do any of this remotely, and wouldn't try anything at all in Argentina without a local wife or family, or in my case unless it was "free" money from Bitcoin and zero risk, UNLESS it was through @earlyretirement @BuySellBA - no one else would be honest with you and support before and after.

Thanks brother. You're always so kind and thanks for the kudos. We always work so hard for our clients for the past 23 years but love when people speak highly of us.

2. Argies are rich in generational wealth and the cost of living in so low in Dollars that THOUSANDS of properties will sit empty for many years because the expenses are like 200 USD a year, and they expect to sell for tens of thousands of dollars more.

Very very true. TONS of wealthy Argentines. There is so much wealth here it would boggle people's mind. I have so many friends here that don't really need to work. None of their friends either. They do but they wouldn't have to because they have generational wealth. I have tons of friends in the USA as well that are ok but now like my Argentine friends. These Argentine friends own tons and tons and tons of real estate. That is the preferred method of wealth creation by most Argentines. When I first moved here I noticed that with politicians. Just look at CFK and how much real estate she owns. When I first moved to BA her and her husband barely owned anything and I saw them stacking real estate. Their friends and family too.

I tried to get the short-term rental market regulated. We were the only ones paying taxes so I wanted everyone else to too so it would be a level playing field. But we always had forces higher up fight it. That's because all their friends and family all own real estate. They didn't want to regulate it so they didn't have to pay taxes on it. People can just sit on real estate for years until they get the price they want.

1. smaller cities have less turnover. but turnover really only matters to people buying a place to invest in and rent, which would be 5% of buyers maybe...they are investors.

When buying real estate no matter where it is you just have to ask yourself what your main motivation for the purchase is. That's the first question I ask my clients/investors in the first consultation. That determines where they should buy and what type they should buy. There is a difference between living and a "home" and an "investment". For investment Buenos Aires can't be beat in Argentina. But that isn't going to make sense for someone that hates the big city.

While I disagree with @StatusNomadicus sometimes, he made many great points in the above post.

Great post @StatusNomadicus!

I think @StatusNomadicus has great posts. Very detailed and thought out. Only stuff I disagree is just constant arguing with others. Life is too short.

I bought 2 apartments in Palermo Uno many years ago at pozo. I did it through @BuySellBA. It was ridiculous the price I paid. It was very low. Around $50,000 each. By the time it was finished a few years later the price skyrocketed. They kept asking me the entire time if I wanted to sell my units. I did end up selling one in 2018 but kept one.


Agree with this. It's always better to pay more and buy in hot locations. It is different if you are buying to live. It sounds like @StatusNomadicus wasn't just buying as an investment but buying to live. Sounds like he loves Mendoza so that was the right call for him. Mendoza is a great city. Enjoyed my visits there. Very livable.


I don't think 100% is the norm except on new constructions. I declared 100% on my units that I bought and I also bought through GyD. They developed my units in Palermo Uno. Mike mostly buys with them. I remember another tower that they offered me in Palermo Soho and that was also by them. They have been around in BA forever.

I also think 40% is too low based on escribanos that I spoke to when I was buying mine. I sold one of my apartments in Palermo Uno and the buyer wouldn't buy it unless I agreed to record a lower price. I had no big incentive to list lower because there was no capital gains taxes in Argentina back then. Now there is 15% capital gains tax but I am grandfathered in as I bought so long ago so I don't have capital gains taxes. My lawyer told me it is very common to list lower but ideally not lower than 65% to 70% of the actual price.

This is what my lawyer told me. She said that AFIP does have a database of what listing prices are and then when the title deed is done processed, they will check and see what the final closing price is. They generally know what prices m2 are going for and what the listed price is. If there is too big of a gap you can get audited. Not sure what big risks the seller has. She told me the big risk is to the realtor and the Escribano on the transaction as they are putting their license at risk.

I don't know in practice how much risk there is but it does sound like they have a mechanism to track this and 40% is very low. Much lower than what lawyers/accountants and what BuySellBA told me. They told me it's not ideal to go lower than 70%.

Yep. I agree that 40% of true value is way too low. I've been doing this for 23 years and the largest buyer of residential real estate in Argentina. That is too low to declare IMHO. Honestly I never like going lower than 65%. ARCA isn't as dumb as everything thinks they are. You're just inviting problems declaring that low. Plus, of the potential capital gains hit declaring much lower price than you actually purchased it for. No guarantee you can do the same thing when you sell.

 

[FuturoBA]

I bought 2 apartments in Palermo Uno many years ago at pozo. I did it through @BuySellBA. It was ridiculous the price I paid. It was very low. Around $50,000 each. By the time it was finished a few years later the price skyrocketed. They kept asking me the entire time if I wanted to sell my units. I did end up selling one in 2018 but kept one.


Agree with this. It's always better to pay more and buy in hot locations. It is different if you are buying to live. It sounds like @StatusNomadicus wasn't just buying as an investment but buying to live. Sounds like he loves Mendoza so that was the right call for him. Mendoza is a great city. Enjoyed my visits there. Very livable.


I don't think 100% is the norm except on new constructions. I declared 100% on my units that I bought and I also bought through GyD. They developed my units in Palermo Uno. Mike mostly buys with them. I remember another tower that they offered me in Palermo Soho and that was also by them. They have been around in BA forever.

I also think 40% is too low based on escribanos that I spoke to when I was buying mine. I sold one of my apartments in Palermo Uno and the buyer wouldn't buy it unless I agreed to record a lower price. I had no big incentive to list lower because there was no capital gains taxes in Argentina back then. Now there is 15% capital gains tax but I am grandfathered in as I bought so long ago so I don't have capital gains taxes. My lawyer told me it is very common to list lower but ideally not lower than 65% to 70% of the actual price.

This is what my lawyer told me. She said that AFIP does have a database of what listing prices are and then when the title deed is done processed, they will check and see what the final closing price is. They generally know what prices m2 are going for and what the listed price is. If there is too big of a gap you can get audited. Not sure what big risks the seller has. She told me the big risk is to the realtor and the Escribano on the transaction as they are putting their license at risk.

I don't know in practice how much risk there is but it does sound like they have a mechanism to track this and 40% is very low. Much lower than what lawyers/accountants and what BuySellBA told me. They told me it's not ideal to go lower than 70%.

Something I've heard you can do, is if you're buying a furnished place, is effectively move a portion of the the housing onto the cost of the furniture. Not sure what split you can do, but for example you purchase a 100k furnished place and state 60k was for the place and 40k for the furnishing. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I've seen this discussed somewhere before although there might be a limit to the ratio you should use.

 

[JonJLA]

Something I've heard you can do, is if you're buying a furnished place, is effectively move a portion of the the housing onto the cost of the furniture. Not sure what split you can do, but for example you purchase a 100k furnished place and state 60k was for the place and 40k for the furnishing. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I've seen this discussed somewhere before although there might be a limit to the ratio you should use.

Yes! That is what Mike did for me when I sold one of my studio apartments at Palermo Uno in 2018. I bought my place from pozo at about $50,000 and I spent about $18,500 furnishing it. Went very high end and IIRC the mattress alone cost $1700 dollars. I hired @BuySellBA to sell my apartment. Mike sold it for $187,000 including all the furniture. Part of the reason I got so much was I was charging $150/night for the place and it was booked solid about 23 days a month year round. Prices have since gone way down but in the beginning there was only mostly Mike's units in the buildings and they were all full.

I sold my apartment furnished but Mike broke out the property so I had $87,000 for the actual apartment and $100,000 in furnishings, artwork and furniture! I had 0% capital gains tax in Argentina as they didn't have any capital gains taxes then. I had to split stamp tax but it was only on the $87,000. I think I paid a little under 2% on the stamp tax. On paper it looked like I only made $37,000 ($87,000 sales price minus $50,000 purchase price). The furniture was in a separate contract. It was all legal too. In the USA I had to pay long term capital gains tax but it was only on the $37,000 because the furniture wasn't in the main title deed.

The best thing is I got $100,000 in cash. Funny to think about! I have a photo somewhere of that closing. I was going down to BA about 3 times a year. That first trip I only took $10k back and left $90k with BuySellBA. The next trip my brother and his wife went down. We each brought back $10k each. It took about 2 years but I got all the cash back.

What an adventure!

 

[Johnny]

Yes! That is what Mike did for me when I sold one of my studio apartments at Palermo Uno in 2018. I bought my place from pozo at about $50,000 and I spent about $18,500 furnishing it. Went very high end and IIRC the mattress alone cost $1700 dollars. I hired @BuySellBA to sell my apartment. Mike sold it for $187,000 including all the furniture. Part of the reason I got so much was I was charging $150/night for the place and it was booked solid about 23 days a month year round. Prices have since gone way down but in the beginning there was only mostly Mike's units in the buildings and they were all full.

I sold my apartment furnished but Mike broke out the property so I had $87,000 for the actual apartment and $100,000 in furnishings, artwork and furniture! I had 0% capital gains tax in Argentina as they didn't have any capital gains taxes then. I had to split stamp tax but it was only on the $87,000. I think I paid a little under 2% on the stamp tax. On paper it looked like I only made $37,000 ($87,000 sales price minus $50,000 purchase price). The furniture was in a separate contract. It was all legal too. In the USA I had to pay long term capital gains tax but it was only on the $37,000 because the furniture wasn't in the main title deed.

The best thing is I got $100,000 in cash. Funny to think about! I have a photo somewhere of that closing. I was going down to BA about 3 times a year. That first trip I only took $10k back and left $90k with BuySellBA. The next trip my brother and his wife went down. We each brought back $10k each. It took about 2 years but I got all the cash back.

What an adventure!

Wow! Genius! Wouldn't think of something like that but a great idea. @JonJLA I went to many meetings over near your apartment. The developer has their office there next to the building and Mike showed me some of those units. He bought 25% of your tower. We tried to rent a place there but all the units were booked. Mike told me he owned 4 apartments himself in that building but he sold them all around the same time you did. He told me about picking them up for $47,000 and selling them for $200,000 each.

Good timing. Are there any units available for sale in your building? I looked and tried to find something in your building but the entire time I looked nothing was for sale. I heard that entire building is 65% Airbnbs now.

 

[Betsy Ross]

Yep. I agree that 40% of true value is way too low. I've been doing this for 23 years and the largest buyer of residential real estate in Argentina. That is too low to declare IMHO. Honestly I never like going lower than 65%. ARCA isn't as dumb as everything thinks they are. You're just inviting problems declaring that low. Plus, of the potential capital gains hit declaring much lower price than you actually purchased it for. No guarantee you can do the same thing when you sell.

I agree with this. When I was buying my apartment they gave me the same formula. I have never heard of people declaring that low in Buenos Aires. I'm not sure a reputable escribano would even allow that. Maybe things are different in Mendoza @StatusNomadicus. Didn't you feel nervous declaring so low. It's all illegal but there is a difference between doing what the locals are doing and just blatantly breaking the law. 40% would scare me.

My lawyer said the same as what @earlyretirement mentions here.

 

[oil rush]

Thanks for explaining this so detailed. They told me if I bought a new pozo unit I could sell it any time before it's done or even after it's done. I'm looking at a studio unit and even on that if I prepay ahead of time they will pay me $300 a month until it is done. I have the cash so might just do that. Sounds like the price of the m2 will keep going up for the next 3 years so seems like a great deal to lock in the price, make some cash and I can always sell tax free.

I didn't know Mike was building his own hotel! I probably can't afford that but will ask him about it. Thanks!

I did this a few years ago. I got in on a sweet deal. A friend was building a small building in Palermo Hollywood. Only 5 floors and a few units per floor. He needed money to buy the land so a few of us got together. I bought 2 units in the building. I sold one within 12 months of buying the land and made about 30% of my money but the other one I waited until the building was almost done and I doubled my money. Made 100% return. That is probably impossible to do now that construction costs are already so high. I am seeing many new projects where the cost per m2 is already over $3,500 m2.

I just did a cession de boleto on my 2 units where I just flipped it to another local. They paid me the price I wanted and took over the property and closed under their name. This is very common in Argentina. The key is to just make sure you know the developer and trust them and they have a long track record. Many never finish!

Is there any website about this new hotel? I would be interested in the project. Can someone post a website?

 

[StatusNomadicus]

wrong

you're usually a voice of reason here, so i'm not sure why you're so aggressive ... i'm simply stating what 11 months, 3 provinces, many many consults with professionals and notaries and realtors, several offers on houses, and 1.5 years of research into Argentine customs, has led me to understand:

1. "Additionally, in many new construction projects, sellers may only be willing to sell to you if you agree to declare a sale price that's as low as 50% of the actual amount you're paying. Some reputable real estate firms that are involved in new construction projects may advise their clients to report only 50% of the actual sale price on the title deed. However, it's strongly discouraged to engage in such practices." (2023) https://thelatinvestor.com/blogs/news/argentina-property-pitfalls

2. "...to move the real estate culture away from under declaring the actual value that a property was sold for. Example: Buy pays seller 500,000 pesos for a property. The escribano records the property sale at the Property Registery office as sold for 150,000 pesos. This is very typical in Argentine history. Why? One reason is that owner does not want to pay so much yearly property taxes. This is why you, as a propery buyer , will hear from many sellers that the yearly property taxes are very very low. And of course they are hoping you will agree to declare it a lower price. For the last year I have been strongly recommending to property buyers to have the actual price recorded anyway. AFIP has been talking about this for about a year now." (2008) http://www.travelsur.net/forum/messages/199/2706.html

3. "The seller wants to declare the selling price as considerably less than what we are paying or it to save on the 2.5% tax. We hear this is common practice." (2006-2007 discussion of the exact thing i'm saying - and i suspect @earlyretirement is the ApartmentsBA.com user here...what a badass, posting info for free for two decades!!!) http://www.travelsur.net/forum/messages/20/1109.html

4. "almost every seller declares a fake lower price" (2023) https://buysellba.com/capital-gains-taxes

5. "For many years up until 2018, there was 0% capital gains tax. But declaring a fake lower price is so prevalent, that the government knew they were losing out on transfer taxes so they instituted a 15% capital gains tax when selling. We always push for 'white' (i.e. legal) deals but the truth remains that many sellers refuse to sell their properties unless you record a false lower price. Also, on many new constructions projects, they refuse to sell the property to you unless you go along with prices as low as 50% of the original prices you are paying. We advise our clients against this practice. There are reputable realtor firms that are involved with new construction that are advising their clients to record 50% of the title deed and we strongly advise against going that low."

in summary: i'm not asserting anything crazy; what's the difference between 20% and 40%? both are extremely obvious violations of the Escritura law. an ARCA/AFIP that paid a few bucks for artificial intelligence could easily search the archived listing prices of properties and cross-check with the deeds, and find millions of properties that declared a super low price. where are you seeing Argentines declaring 100% of a house or apartment?? @Wally i have never met a single person that was able to declare 100%, other than a phone meeting with earlyretirement where he said he likes being in the white. i literally would have not been able to buy my current house with 100%, and i suspect even arguing anything 41-99% would have caused the seller to move-on (why bother with me, when literally everyone else is doing what everyone else is doing?). also, for me 99% or 20% was the same moral and legal issue - what difference does it make to me if i'm committing fraud, 80% or 60% or 1%? it's still against the law, and risky. it's the reason why i didn't want to do anything shady, but as you know, doing things 'as they've been done in the past' is the name of the game here in Argie-land.

it's so strange that making a simple statement that when i bought a house, i was encouraged to declare 20%, and only when i asked my Notary many times about the stress it was causing me (and post-phone-call with @earlyretirement) did she say she would try to convince the seller to do at least 40%. i was there in her office when we all first met together - the Seller (a very typical Argentine) told her he wanted 20%, she said no, not possible now with new laws, and it's best to do at least 40%, then he finally relented when i said it was a deal-breaker to do anything less than what she said. but i imagine his other deals are less than 40% and it's probably more rare here to do 40% after so many decades of doing 20% or lower.

my anecdote is hardly different than 50% or 40% - and it's not like it was my idea to do 20% ... of course i initially asked for 100%. the fact that the seller, who is an investor and very wealthy with multiple properties, had heard about the 40% recommendation from my Notary for the first time that day, leads me to believe that it's much more common than you'd think. and the argument of 'you think you know so much but you don't and you haven't been here that long' is fallacious and silly. i've been here about a year and a half without leaving, and i spend hours walking streets and doing research and talking to Locals...who else has as much exposure to how things work here, other than @BowTiedMara and @earlyretirement? an expat who bought a place years ago and lives retired in CABA and travels very little has very little exposure to changes in this country. i'm not an expert or a genius, but i've certainly made great choices and have been 'right' about a lot of things, from people being denied entry/deported at the border, and stable prices, and getting the best MEP/Blue pricing. i was running with my dog today and kept thinking about this forum post, how strange it was the argument you're making here Wally:

A. "Sorry but you are wrong." not i; i'm just stating what others have told me, locals and expats, and i'm giving my personal experience with many Sellers in 3 provinces. i don't know how stating what happened in front of my eyes can be "wrong"

B. "Not many only use 40%." yes, every single seller i've talked to from G&D in BsAs to other realtors in Cordoba to individual sellers here in Mendoza have stated that declaring a fake price is what 99% of Argentines do. and the rest only don't because they can't. are you arguing 40% exactly? because my only claim is that people declare a lower price; i don't really care if it's 20% or 40% or 90% because it's all illegal in the same sense, and a risk to us Expats to possibly ruin residency or citizenship in the worst-case scenario.

B. "You haven't been in Argentina long but you act like you have." oooooookay, well i've been here about 1.5 years and can only be certain of what i know to be true. i don't know how i'm "acting" since all i do is write my experiences and make connections about pieces of information. i don't claim to be an expert in anything, but i'm certainly pretty good at researching things and documenting information. i don't know what this sudden personal beef is about, but it seems like you're attacking a caricature of someone, and it has nothing to do with my actions here or who i am. and it's very stange to see coming from you.

C. "40% declaring that low is reckless." nah. reckless would be doing something impulsive and against judgement. on the contrary, i used all my resources and got it changed from 20%, and made the informed decision to buy a house for free with crypto, with the small chance that it would cause me to pay some taxes later, but in that case i would be in the same situation as literally everyone else here. i'm very surprised that you don't know this.

D. "You have only been here a short amount of time." alright, that's just like your opinion, man 😛 i bet i know a shitload more than you and most others here about a lot of topics, from history / politics / religion / fitness / nutrition / dog training / travel / languages. i'm around 40 and i've been to 50 countries and lived out of the USA for the overwhelming majority of my adult life, and i'm as fluent in Spanish as i'll probably ever get, and i have multiple degrees and more liquid savings that you and zero debt and i've spent the post-Milei-election time in my life exploring these cities and talking to hundreds of people and gaining a great understanding of Peso/USD pricing on cars and properties and goods and the cost of living here. why would you say that i've been here a "short" time? my 4 months in BsAs was very different than most Expats who stay in hotels and luxury apartments, and i meet Expats and Locals all the time that don't know many of the things i've been fortunate to learn. and i try to spread that knowledge in the spirit of earlyretirement, for free, because i like to pay-back what good things were done for me. and i have a very blessed life and good people around me. but what metric is a "short time" exactly? who has been here longer than me, and has been exposed to as much stuff? i just taught a 70-year-old engineer here in Mendoza what barbeque sauce was. he had no idea what it was. salsa barbacoa. guess if i took your advice and didn't share information, because you might think it was wrong or stupid, i wouldn't have told him what BBQ sauce was. and when my lady made him Guacamole from scratch, since he had also never had it or heard of it, i also shared that with him. he's a millionare in Mendoza with a huge property and business and knows a ton about engineering, but he suffers from the insulating factor of Argentines because he just hasn't traveled much and he doesn't research anything. but i continually find that i know a lot more than local Argies who have 'been here a long time according to Wally' - like the example i gave of my Seller having no idea that people should do 40% escritura now. he never thanked me 😉

E. "You are going to get wrecked if you keep doing things that are that far in black. ARCA knows things go on but they aren't stupid. Declaring that low is just stupid." see above. you're very much unaware of what goes on in Argentina if you think 40% is far in the Black.

F. "It is very very common to declare lower. That goes on all the time. My wife's family owns dozens of properties here and they used a fake lower price" oooookay, so what exactly are you so upset about that you say i'm wrong and have no idea anything about Argentina? please provide some evidence for your claims, as i have done over the year+ here on this forum.

G. "but they did not use 40% of the true price." allllllllllright, so what % did they declare? 60%? i'm getting more and more confused about what you're trying to say here. in my mind, fraud at 1% is the same as fraud at 60%, because it's a risk for me with very little benefits. i agree with earlyretirement to try to do things in 100% White, but again, this just isn't possible most of the time. perhaps you're so bothered because i didn't demand to declare 100% and walk away from the sale?

H. "They have a system with ARCA and they know what price a property is listed for. It is all tracked now. So automatically when the property finally goes through the registry, ARCA will flag properties that are a certain % below what it was listed for. It might take a while to catch up but they are going to people that are declaring much lower than the list price. Things are changing." sure, i have been the biggest advocate of change here, warning people about illegal border runs and all sorts of things. i just don't understand exactly what your point is; do you know what % flags people in their system? if so, share a link. and do you think that the ARCA people are declaring 100% of their property prices? because literally every single Argentine uses cuevas and declares fake prices on every possible aspect of life, for as long as they've lived, so i would be a drop in an ocean of people, and if people got audited for that stuff i would for sure be the 2nd-to-last person targeted, the last being earlyretirement 😛

I. "Did you get your title deed yet @StatusNomadicus? Just because others are doing silly things declaring so low doesn't mean it's a good idea for you to too." i'm confused how you think i, the dude accused of being autistic, who spends hours researching the silliest aspects of life, and posts data all the time here, and continually asks for guidance, and consults people smarter than me...how you think my house sale was some sort of impulse decision?? do you have me confused with someone else? i'm literally the guy that will argue the other side of an argument just because i don't see a balanced conversation...and sometimes i'm not even arguing my beliefs, just a "Steel Man" perspective. i'm probably the least person likely to follow a crowd in this forum. how could you possibly imagine i did something "silly" (which i jusrt debunked) because i saw other people doing it and thought it was a "good idea" ???? i'm so confused at your logic. did Avocado or Che or Larry hack into your account? (i know they didn't because they can't write well in English, but still...)

no i don't have my Escritura because the commies at the office of putting-a-stamp-in-5-seconds-on-this-piece-of-paper-takes-8-months haven't gotten off their WhatsApp phone call to do their job. chainsaw incoming, i hope. Argentina will be a serious country when you pay and get your Deed the same day, like most non-savage countries

crypto

they will someday. most still want physical dollars, but will bring a Cueva guy in for you to send USDT/Tether/TRX-20 to, and give them the cash. this will change; the digital revolution is still in its infancy.

people told you that people here do not want to deal with crypto. It's mostly all cash here.

and like i informed those who use the fallacy of 'it's always been this way and won't change' were contradicting themselves, because they also say that the only constant in Argentina is change.....i bought my house by sending crypto directly, and i taught the Seller and his finance guy and my Notary how it all worked, and i managed the entire operation in Spanish without anyone there speaking English, over a couple months of negotiations and Boleto and all that. i was not the first to use Bitcoin/crypto in Mendoza, but the few ahead of me also did not put it on their Deed papers.

so, not to be an asshole, but you may have missed the part where i debunked the 'Argentine sales are only in cash' and now i can provide evidence that it can be done 🙂 happy to help anyone for free, if they want to do the same. but i don't recommend USDT/Tether because it is a centralized token and not true Cryptocurrency, and it doesn't have any upside in my opinion.

some just don't agree

please point them out and challenge the evidence presented with your own, then 😀 i'm not married to any of my ideas (except for that socialism murders millions of people and is a religion of envy), and if you know something that i don't ... share it with the class! everyone here will benefit. but it's hard to argue against 'some things you say i don't agree with' - alright, well have you met anyone in your life that you 100% agree with?? hahahah if you have, they are lying about something. i don't write or say things out of guessing or boredom; i take research and life organization very seriously. and i enjoy helping others as i've been helped. in essence, none of my ideas are even mine, since i learned them from someone else, and am currently testing them as forumlas for navigating the world

It is different if you are buying to live. It sounds like @StatusNomadicus wasn't just buying as an investment but buying to live. Sounds like he loves Mendoza so that was the right call for him. Mendoza is a great city. Enjoyed my visits there. Very livable.

agreed, and what percentage do you think of all the Expats in Argentina are investors who are buying more than 1 apartment/house? i said earlier 1% but maybe i'm a little off. regardless, the first choice for real estate for almost everyone who isn't a multi-millionaire is for a place that they can live in, and sell or rent later. Mendoza is thousands of times better than Buenos Aires for me. mountains are far superior to a brown river-ocean that you can barely see, and can't swim in 🙂

I also think 40% is too low based on escribanos that I spoke to when I was buying mine

what year? what area? with developers or regular Seller individuals? see links above...20-40% is very common here. not sure of how else i can prove that, but i also have no idea why i would spend so much time making something up on a free forum /shrug

I sold one of my apartments in Palermo Uno and the buyer wouldn't buy it unless I agreed to record a lower price

you said 40% was too low, but you didn't say what % the Buyer asked for. 50%? 60%? 70%? 80%? for me there isn't much difference; i'm breaking the law, or i'm not.

it is very common to list lower but ideally not lower than 65% to 70% of the actual price.

i have found a completely different answer, and don't think this is correct. are you talking about only pozo new builds from Developers? because that type of sale is completely different than buying the old house of a family member that inherited something from the 1950s because someone died. maybe we're arguing about 2 different things, and that's the confusion? even G&D wanted me to declare 60%, which you claim is too low. i still have the paper. not trying to snitch, but i don't think that's the reality. i guarantee my sale wouldn't have gone through if i asked 65%. and again: what's the point? when ARCA does this fraud-hunting (which has been discussed since at least 2006 if you look at my above links), my 40% will be at the very bottom of the stack; there are millions of properties that have declared less than 40%. thus why i had to fight so much to get 40% done, and it was one of very few things i had to compromise on.

She said that AFIP does have a database of what listing prices are and then when the title deed is done processed, they will check and see what the final closing price is. They generally know what prices m2 are going for and what the listed price is. If there is too big of a gap you can get audited. Not sure what big risks the seller has.

they're going to have to go after their own family members, police, judges, notaries, realtors, etc. then 🙂 hopefully these taxes will just get deleted and ARCA/AFIP will get the Chainsaw coup de grace for good. and what do you mean the Seller risk?? the Seller has all the risk! they bought with fraud and sold with fraud, so they have much more guilt and risk than the Expat buyer who was sort of coerced to go along with it. the Sellers want a lower price because if not they'd have huge taxes and huge wealth exposure!

it does sound like they have a mechanism to track this and 40% is very low. Much lower than what lawyers/accountants and what BuySellBA told me. They told me it's not ideal to go lower than 70%.

we shall see. regardless, i'm just sharing my story and trying to give people the information i didn't have at the time. everything is negotiable if you're patient and have money! but you really should ask Argies what they declared on their properties. i'm really surprised you don't know this. people have laughed at me for trying to declare 100% or close to, 70% - it just doesn't happen unless you have the negotiating sway and business practice of over 20 years that earlyretirement has. us normal folks have to make some compromises. if you can find me a developer or seller that will do 100%, post it!

furnished

one problem i ran into was the Realtor etc. wanting to get their commission on the highest price. i fought and told them to f*ck-off, but it's something that you need to be prepared to walk away about. and it's still fraud, regardless of the details of the operation 🙂

We each brought back $10k each. It took about 2 years but I got all the cash back.

and now with Bitcoin Cash if you could buy it locally with cash, there isn't anyone in the world that can stop you from moving the "money" somewhere else. the revolution is peer-to-peer digital cash! www.WhyBitcoinCash.com

He told me about picking them up for $47,000 and selling them for $200,000 each.

i'm sure even the guy trying to sell the apartments will be honest that it's a LOT more complicated than that, and the take-home is much less and the process isn't simple or stress-free. but for sure i would invest with BuySellBA if i was interested in Buenos Aires luxury apartments to rent or sell

it's all illegal but there is a difference between doing what the locals are doing and just blatantly breaking the law. 40% would scare me.

no, there is no difference...what do you mean? 99% of Argentines are doing this. they're blantantly breaking the law, just like when cops would use illegal cuevas. Argentine culture as you know revolves around blatantly breaking the law, because the taxes just go to criminals/thieves. 40% didn't scare me because it was the only option here, and my Notary obviously was okay with it; how else would she have processed my purchase?? again: what difference is 40% versus 75% lying? all the consequences are the same.

I bought 2 units in the building. I sold one within 12 months of buying the land and made about 30% of my money but the other one I waited until the building was almost done and I doubled my money. Made 100% return.

one of the realtors here in Mendoza does this with plots of land. he buys stuff near or in Country/gated neighborhoods and just sits on them for a few years, then sells. he says it's great IF you have contacts, are from there, and want to make a somewhat-risky investment for the long-term.

don't really need to work

you can always tell which societies are wealthy by how many vacations they have. and 90% of Argies refusing to work on the weekend or Sunday (not for religious reasons, since almost all are Catholics in name only) makes it blatantly obvious that they don't need to work much. also, i could livestream my WhatsApp and message 100 businesses in Buenos Aires a simple question, and of the 60 that actually respond, half will be useless, and only about 5% total will answer questions and 'work' to make money. i messaged Notaries for my house and only 1 ended up responding to basic questions. same wtih my accountant. simple quotes that in the USA would be done same-day...they either never get done, or they're slow and half-assed. Argentina is so wealthy that people can just be lazy and "tranquilo" most of the time.

People can just sit on real estate for years until they get the price they want.

maybe when you say it, the negative nancies here will listen 😛 because 'i haven't been here long enough' lol, yet i seem to get a lot right, huh? it's strange that if i listed my house for 200k USD and it didn't sell for 10 years that a few people here would say it's a bad turnaround in Mendoza. if i listed it at 120k with no games, i'm very certain it would sell immediately. the Free Market never lies

For investment Buenos Aires can't be beat in Argentina. But that isn't going to make sense for someone that hates the big city.

agreed, and you write better than me, but i've never said otherwise. i'm still open to investing in BsAs but not in a hurry. maybe if my crypto spikes again i'll have more of an urgency, but until i see who wins the CABA election, i'm not that interested in the big-city land of Peronists. i constantly met people in BsAs that were full-on propaganda NPCs about Milei, but here in Mendoza almost everyone i meet (other than retirees and ñoquis) are very ready for their country to get out of the socialist swamp. and many many many mendocinos dislike going to Buenos Aires because of the people (60% rude, busy, no patience, NYC style city-dweller conceited assholes).

Only stuff I disagree is just constant arguing with others. Life is too short.

agreed 😆

Yep. I agree that 40% of true value is way too low. I've been doing this for 23 years and the largest buyer of residential real estate in Argentina. That is too low to declare IMHO. Honestly I never like going lower than 65%. ARCA isn't as dumb as everything thinks they are. You're just inviting problems declaring that low. Plus, of the potential capital gains hit declaring much lower price than you actually purchased it for. No guarantee you can do the same thing when you sell.

there's no way to prove how low most regular Argentines and single-property Expats declared, since Deeds aren't public here. so i don't have any way to prove that it's much more ubiquitous than you and others think, and it's sort of irrelevant because everyone has to make their own decisions. but regardless, Mendoza is different than the Province of Buenos Aires and VERY different than CABA. and buying multiple apartments for an investment, from a Developer, is an entirely different operation than buying someone's house or from a small-scale house flipper individual. perhaps that's the main difference.

i could give you the number of my Notary to chat with her; she's at a big firm in Mendoza Capital. but for normal sales like mine, buying from sneaky Argentines (in a good way; tax evasion is patriotic) is going to be very hard if you are requiring 100%. and if you're requiring 75% i just don't see the difference in the morality or finances or any of it. but that's just my opinion. those who think i'm trust worthy will just have to do their own research...ask 10 normal homeowners like me (but born in Argentina) how much their Deed says, percentage-wise. i think i'm closer to the truth about normal houses for individuals, but since none of us have any way of proving it until deeds are public, it's sort of a waste of time to argue an un-knowable percentage. if i was buying a new-build from G&D with BuySellBA i for sure would have went with the 100% declared option. and i would bet a lot of bitcoin that earlyretirement is literally the only person/company that does 100% in the entire country 😉

 

[Johnny]

3. "The seller wants to declare the selling price as considerably less than what we are paying or it to save on the 2.5% tax. We hear this is common practice." (2006-2007 discussion of the exact thing i'm saying - and i suspect @earlyretirement is the ApartmentsBA.com user here...what a badass, posting info for free for two decades!!!) http://www.travelsur.net/forum/messages/20/1109.html

Mike is a badass! Have known him a long time. I bought many places in Mexico and building up my Argentina real estate portfolio because of him. @StatusNomadicus you sound like you know him too. He was the moderator of some big national USA forums for a long time. Locally here he is a legend! I tried to get him to come work for me at my bank for years but always turned down my offers. I was joking with him the other day funny how this new forum in a short amount of time has overshadowed the old forum he posted on for over a decade. Love the guy like a brother.

. "Not many only use 40%." yes, every single seller i've talked to from G&D in BsAs to other realtors in Cordoba to individual sellers here in Mendoza have stated that declaring a fake price is what 99% of Argentines do. and the rest only don't because they can't. are you arguing 40% exactly? because my only claim is that people declare a lower price; i don't really care if it's 20% or 40% or 90% because it's all illegal in the same sense, and a risk to us Expats to possibly ruin residency or citizenship in the worst-case scenario.

This wasn't my experience with GyD at all. Total opposite. I bought 2 with them already and both they declared 100% of the true price. They never even tried to use a lower price. In fact it was impossible as I wired to their account abroad. They are on the up and up. I would guess the talk about black came because you wanted to use crypto that wasn't declared. Both my properties were all in white.

I wouldn't worry too much about things. Argentina doesn't strike me as too organized and from what I can see from past Presidents and even Milei is everyone is cheating taxes or has some scam!

 

[Johnny]

The key is to just make sure you know the developer and trust them and they have a long track record. Many never finish!

Is there any website about this new hotel? I would be interested in the project. Can someone post a website?

This part about having a long track record is key! I went to dinner my last trip with Mike and BowTiedMara (https://x.com/BowTiedMara )

It was so much fun. We spent almost 5 hours and shut down the restaurant until 1:30 AM chatting about real estate and other things. Even people that know Argentina like BowTiedMara was telling us how he bought 4 pozos and they never finished! It's been like 5 years and they stopped and never finished. He thought he was getting a great deal but the project just stalled. I think he posted about that so I hope it's ok if I post about that. But I thought to myself if smart people that know Argentina make mistakes the typical person has no shot.

Mike told me he only buys with 2 developers in BA that have been around 30 years and done many towers. I would never buy with a small developer or someone I didn't know.

@oil rush talk to Mike. I am flying down in 2 weeks to Buenos Aires to check out my apartment and see the hotel project. I already went to many meetings before about it as I am buying at least a 2 bedroom in that project. I tried to buy a 3 bedroom and he told me there are only a few and they are sold out already!

 

[Uncle Wong]

you're usually a voice of reason here, so i'm not sure why you're so aggressive ... i'm simply stating what 11 months, 3 provinces, many many consults with professionals and notaries and realtors, several offers on houses, and 1.5 years of research into Argentine customs, has led me to understand:

1. "Additionally, in many new construction projects, sellers may only be willing to sell to you if you agree to declare a sale price that's as low as 50% of the actual amount you're paying. Some reputable real estate firms that are involved in new construction projects may advise their clients to report only 50% of the actual sale price on the title deed. However, it's strongly discouraged to engage in such practices." (2023) https://thelatinvestor.com/blogs/news/argentina-property-pitfalls

2. "...to move the real estate culture away from under declaring the actual value that a property was sold for. Example: Buy pays seller 500,000 pesos for a property. The escribano records the property sale at the Property Registery office as sold for 150,000 pesos. This is very typical in Argentine history. Why? One reason is that owner does not want to pay so much yearly property taxes. This is why you, as a propery buyer , will hear from many sellers that the yearly property taxes are very very low. And of course they are hoping you will agree to declare it a lower price. For the last year I have been strongly recommending to property buyers to have the actual price recorded anyway. AFIP has been talking about this for about a year now." (2008) http://www.travelsur.net/forum/messages/199/2706.html

3. "The seller wants to declare the selling price as considerably less than what we are paying or it to save on the 2.5% tax. We hear this is common practice." (2006-2007 discussion of the exact thing i'm saying - and i suspect @earlyretirement is the ApartmentsBA.com user here...what a badass, posting info for free for two decades!!!) http://www.travelsur.net/forum/messages/20/1109.html

4. "almost every seller declares a fake lower price" (2023) https://buysellba.com/capital-gains-taxes

5. "For many years up until 2018, there was 0% capital gains tax. But declaring a fake lower price is so prevalent, that the government knew they were losing out on transfer taxes so they instituted a 15% capital gains tax when selling. We always push for 'white' (i.e. legal) deals but the truth remains that many sellers refuse to sell their properties unless you record a false lower price. Also, on many new constructions projects, they refuse to sell the property to you unless you go along with prices as low as 50% of the original prices you are paying. We advise our clients against this practice. There are reputable realtor firms that are involved with new construction that are advising their clients to record 50% of the title deed and we strongly advise against going that low."

in summary: i'm not asserting anything crazy; what's the difference between 20% and 40%? both are extremely obvious violations of the Escritura law. an ARCA/AFIP that paid a few bucks for artificial intelligence could easily search the archived listing prices of properties and cross-check with the deeds, and find millions of properties that declared a super low price. where are you seeing Argentines declaring 100% of a house or apartment?? @Wally i have never met a single person that was able to declare 100%, other than a phone meeting with earlyretirement where he said he likes being in the white. i literally would have not been able to buy my current house with 100%, and i suspect even arguing anything 41-99% would have caused the seller to move-on (why bother with me, when literally everyone else is doing what everyone else is doing?). also, for me 99% or 20% was the same moral and legal issue - what difference does it make to me if i'm committing fraud, 80% or 60% or 1%? it's still against the law, and risky. it's the reason why i didn't want to do anything shady, but as you know, doing things 'as they've been done in the past' is the name of the game here in Argie-land.

it's so strange that making a simple statement that when i bought a house, i was encouraged to declare 20%, and only when i asked my Notary many times about the stress it was causing me (and post-phone-call with @earlyretirement) did she say she would try to convince the seller to do at least 40%. i was there in her office when we all first met together - the Seller (a very typical Argentine) told her he wanted 20%, she said no, not possible now with new laws, and it's best to do at least 40%, then he finally relented when i said it was a deal-breaker to do anything less than what she said. but i imagine his other deals are less than 40% and it's probably more rare here to do 40% after so many decades of doing 20% or lower.

my anecdote is hardly different than 50% or 40% - and it's not like it was my idea to do 20% ... of course i initially asked for 100%. the fact that the seller, who is an investor and very wealthy with multiple properties, had heard about the 40% recommendation from my Notary for the first time that day, leads me to believe that it's much more common than you'd think. and the argument of 'you think you know so much but you don't and you haven't been here that long' is fallacious and silly. i've been here about a year and a half without leaving, and i spend hours walking streets and doing research and talking to Locals...who else has as much exposure to how things work here, other than @BowTiedMara and @earlyretirement? an expat who bought a place years ago and lives retired in CABA and travels very little has very little exposure to changes in this country. i'm not an expert or a genius, but i've certainly made great choices and have been 'right' about a lot of things, from people being denied entry/deported at the border, and stable prices, and getting the best MEP/Blue pricing. i was running with my dog today and kept thinking about this forum post, how strange it was the argument you're making here Wally:

A. "Sorry but you are wrong." not i; i'm just stating what others have told me, locals and expats, and i'm giving my personal experience with many Sellers in 3 provinces. i don't know how stating what happened in front of my eyes can be "wrong"

B. "Not many only use 40%." yes, every single seller i've talked to from G&D in BsAs to other realtors in Cordoba to individual sellers here in Mendoza have stated that declaring a fake price is what 99% of Argentines do. and the rest only don't because they can't. are you arguing 40% exactly? because my only claim is that people declare a lower price; i don't really care if it's 20% or 40% or 90% because it's all illegal in the same sense, and a risk to us Expats to possibly ruin residency or citizenship in the worst-case scenario.

B. "You haven't been in Argentina long but you act like you have." oooooookay, well i've been here about 1.5 years and can only be certain of what i know to be true. i don't know how i'm "acting" since all i do is write my experiences and make connections about pieces of information. i don't claim to be an expert in anything, but i'm certainly pretty good at researching things and documenting information. i don't know what this sudden personal beef is about, but it seems like you're attacking a caricature of someone, and it has nothing to do with my actions here or who i am. and it's very stange to see coming from you.

C. "40% declaring that low is reckless." nah. reckless would be doing something impulsive and against judgement. on the contrary, i used all my resources and got it changed from 20%, and made the informed decision to buy a house for free with crypto, with the small chance that it would cause me to pay some taxes later, but in that case i would be in the same situation as literally everyone else here. i'm very surprised that you don't know this.

D. "You have only been here a short amount of time." alright, that's just like your opinion, man 😛 i bet i know a shitload more than you and most others here about a lot of topics, from history / politics / religion / fitness / nutrition / dog training / travel / languages. i'm around 40 and i've been to 50 countries and lived out of the USA for the overwhelming majority of my adult life, and i'm as fluent in Spanish as i'll probably ever get, and i have multiple degrees and more liquid savings that you and zero debt and i've spent the post-Milei-election time in my life exploring these cities and talking to hundreds of people and gaining a great understanding of Peso/USD pricing on cars and properties and goods and the cost of living here. why would you say that i've been here a "short" time? my 4 months in BsAs was very different than most Expats who stay in hotels and luxury apartments, and i meet Expats and Locals all the time that don't know many of the things i've been fortunate to learn. and i try to spread that knowledge in the spirit of earlyretirement, for free, because i like to pay-back what good things were done for me. and i have a very blessed life and good people around me. but what metric is a "short time" exactly? who has been here longer than me, and has been exposed to as much stuff? i just taught a 70-year-old engineer here in Mendoza what barbeque sauce was. he had no idea what it was. salsa barbacoa. guess if i took your advice and didn't share information, because you might think it was wrong or stupid, i wouldn't have told him what BBQ sauce was. and when my lady made him Guacamole from scratch, since he had also never had it or heard of it, i also shared that with him. he's a millionare in Mendoza with a huge property and business and knows a ton about engineering, but he suffers from the insulating factor of Argentines because he just hasn't traveled much and he doesn't research anything. but i continually find that i know a lot more than local Argies who have 'been here a long time according to Wally' - like the example i gave of my Seller having no idea that people should do 40% escritura now. he never thanked me 😉

E. "You are going to get wrecked if you keep doing things that are that far in black. ARCA knows things go on but they aren't stupid. Declaring that low is just stupid." see above. you're very much unaware of what goes on in Argentina if you think 40% is far in the Black.

F. "It is very very common to declare lower. That goes on all the time. My wife's family owns dozens of properties here and they used a fake lower price" oooookay, so what exactly are you so upset about that you say i'm wrong and have no idea anything about Argentina? please provide some evidence for your claims, as i have done over the year+ here on this forum.

G. "but they did not use 40% of the true price." allllllllllright, so what % did they declare? 60%? i'm getting more and more confused about what you're trying to say here. in my mind, fraud at 1% is the same as fraud at 60%, because it's a risk for me with very little benefits. i agree with earlyretirement to try to do things in 100% White, but again, this just isn't possible most of the time. perhaps you're so bothered because i didn't demand to declare 100% and walk away from the sale?

H. "They have a system with ARCA and they know what price a property is listed for. It is all tracked now. So automatically when the property finally goes through the registry, ARCA will flag properties that are a certain % below what it was listed for. It might take a while to catch up but they are going to people that are declaring much lower than the list price. Things are changing." sure, i have been the biggest advocate of change here, warning people about illegal border runs and all sorts of things. i just don't understand exactly what your point is; do you know what % flags people in their system? if so, share a link. and do you think that the ARCA people are declaring 100% of their property prices? because literally every single Argentine uses cuevas and declares fake prices on every possible aspect of life, for as long as they've lived, so i would be a drop in an ocean of people, and if people got audited for that stuff i would for sure be the 2nd-to-last person targeted, the last being earlyretirement 😛

I. "Did you get your title deed yet @StatusNomadicus? Just because others are doing silly things declaring so low doesn't mean it's a good idea for you to too." i'm confused how you think i, the dude accused of being autistic, who spends hours researching the silliest aspects of life, and posts data all the time here, and continually asks for guidance, and consults people smarter than me...how you think my house sale was some sort of impulse decision?? do you have me confused with someone else? i'm literally the guy that will argue the other side of an argument just because i don't see a balanced conversation...and sometimes i'm not even arguing my beliefs, just a "Steel Man" perspective. i'm probably the least person likely to follow a crowd in this forum. how could you possibly imagine i did something "silly" (which i jusrt debunked) because i saw other people doing it and thought it was a "good idea" ???? i'm so confused at your logic. did Avocado or Che or Larry hack into your account? (i know they didn't because they can't write well in English, but still...)

no i don't have my Escritura because the commies at the office of putting-a-stamp-in-5-seconds-on-this-piece-of-paper-takes-8-months haven't gotten off their WhatsApp phone call to do their job. chainsaw incoming, i hope. Argentina will be a serious country when you pay and get your Deed the same day, like most non-savage countries


they will someday. most still want physical dollars, but will bring a Cueva guy in for you to send USDT/Tether/TRX-20 to, and give them the cash. this will change; the digital revolution is still in its infancy.


and like i informed those who use the fallacy of 'it's always been this way and won't change' were contradicting themselves, because they also say that the only constant in Argentina is change.....i bought my house by sending crypto directly, and i taught the Seller and his finance guy and my Notary how it all worked, and i managed the entire operation in Spanish without anyone there speaking English, over a couple months of negotiations and Boleto and all that. i was not the first to use Bitcoin/crypto in Mendoza, but the few ahead of me also did not put it on their Deed papers.

so, not to be an asshole, but you may have missed the part where i debunked the 'Argentine sales are only in cash' and now i can provide evidence that it can be done 🙂 happy to help anyone for free, if they want to do the same. but i don't recommend USDT/Tether because it is a centralized token and not true Cryptocurrency, and it doesn't have any upside in my opinion.


please point them out and challenge the evidence presented with your own, then 😀 i'm not married to any of my ideas (except for that socialism murders millions of people and is a religion of envy), and if you know something that i don't ... share it with the class! everyone here will benefit. but it's hard to argue against 'some things you say i don't agree with' - alright, well have you met anyone in your life that you 100% agree with?? hahahah if you have, they are lying about something. i don't write or say things out of guessing or boredom; i take research and life organization very seriously. and i enjoy helping others as i've been helped. in essence, none of my ideas are even mine, since i learned them from someone else, and am currently testing them as forumlas for navigating the world


agreed, and what percentage do you think of all the Expats in Argentina are investors who are buying more than 1 apartment/house? i said earlier 1% but maybe i'm a little off. regardless, the first choice for real estate for almost everyone who isn't a multi-millionaire is for a place that they can live in, and sell or rent later. Mendoza is thousands of times better than Buenos Aires for me. mountains are far superior to a brown river-ocean that you can barely see, and can't swim in 🙂


what year? what area? with developers or regular Seller individuals? see links above...20-40% is very common here. not sure of how else i can prove that, but i also have no idea why i would spend so much time making something up on a free forum /shrug


you said 40% was too low, but you didn't say what % the Buyer asked for. 50%? 60%? 70%? 80%? for me there isn't much difference; i'm breaking the law, or i'm not.


i have found a completely different answer, and don't think this is correct. are you talking about only pozo new builds from Developers? because that type of sale is completely different than buying the old house of a family member that inherited something from the 1950s because someone died. maybe we're arguing about 2 different things, and that's the confusion? even G&D wanted me to declare 60%, which you claim is too low. i still have the paper. not trying to snitch, but i don't think that's the reality. i guarantee my sale wouldn't have gone through if i asked 65%. and again: what's the point? when ARCA does this fraud-hunting (which has been discussed since at least 2006 if you look at my above links), my 40% will be at the very bottom of the stack; there are millions of properties that have declared less than 40%. thus why i had to fight so much to get 40% done, and it was one of very few things i had to compromise on.


they're going to have to go after their own family members, police, judges, notaries, realtors, etc. then 🙂 hopefully these taxes will just get deleted and ARCA/AFIP will get the Chainsaw coup de grace for good. and what do you mean the Seller risk?? the Seller has all the risk! they bought with fraud and sold with fraud, so they have much more guilt and risk than the Expat buyer who was sort of coerced to go along with it. the Sellers want a lower price because if not they'd have huge taxes and huge wealth exposure!


we shall see. regardless, i'm just sharing my story and trying to give people the information i didn't have at the time. everything is negotiable if you're patient and have money! but you really should ask Argies what they declared on their properties. i'm really surprised you don't know this. people have laughed at me for trying to declare 100% or close to, 70% - it just doesn't happen unless you have the negotiating sway and business practice of over 20 years that earlyretirement has. us normal folks have to make some compromises. if you can find me a developer or seller that will do 100%, post it!


one problem i ran into was the Realtor etc. wanting to get their commission on the highest price. i fought and told them to f*ck-off, but it's something that you need to be prepared to walk away about. and it's still fraud, regardless of the details of the operation 🙂


and now with Bitcoin Cash if you could buy it locally with cash, there isn't anyone in the world that can stop you from moving the "money" somewhere else. the revolution is peer-to-peer digital cash! www.WhyBitcoinCash.com


i'm sure even the guy trying to sell the apartments will be honest that it's a LOT more complicated than that, and the take-home is much less and the process isn't simple or stress-free. but for sure i would invest with BuySellBA if i was interested in Buenos Aires luxury apartments to rent or sell


no, there is no difference...what do you mean? 99% of Argentines are doing this. they're blantantly breaking the law, just like when cops would use illegal cuevas. Argentine culture as you know revolves around blatantly breaking the law, because the taxes just go to criminals/thieves. 40% didn't scare me because it was the only option here, and my Notary obviously was okay with it; how else would she have processed my purchase?? again: what difference is 40% versus 75% lying? all the consequences are the same.


one of the realtors here in Mendoza does this with plots of land. he buys stuff near or in Country/gated neighborhoods and just sits on them for a few years, then sells. he says it's great IF you have contacts, are from there, and want to make a somewhat-risky investment for the long-term.


you can always tell which societies are wealthy by how many vacations they have. and 90% of Argies refusing to work on the weekend or Sunday (not for religious reasons, since almost all are Catholics in name only) makes it blatantly obvious that they don't need to work much. also, i could livestream my WhatsApp and message 100 businesses in Buenos Aires a simple question, and of the 60 that actually respond, half will be useless, and only about 5% total will answer questions and 'work' to make money. i messaged Notaries for my house and only 1 ended up responding to basic questions. same wtih my accountant. simple quotes that in the USA would be done same-day...they either never get done, or they're slow and half-assed. Argentina is so wealthy that people can just be lazy and "tranquilo" most of the time.


maybe when you say it, the negative nancies here will listen 😛 because 'i haven't been here long enough' lol, yet i seem to get a lot right, huh? it's strange that if i listed my house for 200k USD and it didn't sell for 10 years that a few people here would say it's a bad turnaround in Mendoza. if i listed it at 120k with no games, i'm very certain it would sell immediately. the Free Market never lies


agreed, and you write better than me, but i've never said otherwise. i'm still open to investing in BsAs but not in a hurry. maybe if my crypto spikes again i'll have more of an urgency, but until i see who wins the CABA election, i'm not that interested in the big-city land of Peronists. i constantly met people in BsAs that were full-on propaganda NPCs about Milei, but here in Mendoza almost everyone i meet (other than retirees and ñoquis) are very ready for their country to get out of the socialist swamp. and many many many mendocinos dislike going to Buenos Aires because of the people (60% rude, busy, no patience, NYC style city-dweller conceited assholes).


agreed 😆


there's no way to prove how low most regular Argentines and single-property Expats declared, since Deeds aren't public here. so i don't have any way to prove that it's much more ubiquitous than you and others think, and it's sort of irrelevant because everyone has to make their own decisions. but regardless, Mendoza is different than the Province of Buenos Aires and VERY different than CABA. and buying multiple apartments for an investment, from a Developer, is an entirely different operation than buying someone's house or from a small-scale house flipper individual. perhaps that's the main difference.

i could give you the number of my Notary to chat with her; she's at a big firm in Mendoza Capital. but for normal sales like mine, buying from sneaky Argentines (in a good way; tax evasion is patriotic) is going to be very hard if you are requiring 100%. and if you're requiring 75% i just don't see the difference in the morality or finances or any of it. but that's just my opinion. those who think i'm trust worthy will just have to do their own research...ask 10 normal homeowners like me (but born in Argentina) how much their Deed says, percentage-wise. i think i'm closer to the truth about normal houses for individuals, but since none of us have any way of proving it until deeds are public, it's sort of a waste of time to argue an un-knowable percentage. if i was buying a new-build from G&D with BuySellBA i for sure would have went with the 100% declared option. and i would bet a lot of bitcoin that earlyretirement is literally the only person/company that does 100% in the entire country 😉

Thank you @StatusNomadicus! You have the most detailed posts! Wow you must spend hours researching. I love it! That is crazy about that Travelsur board! I read all @earlyretirement's poss from the old forum. Crazy to think about posting for 13 years all for the sake of helping people in Argentina! I never saw him even mention his company once until he got outed by Igor the owner. That says something about posting just to help people!

I did a consultation with him as I am going to buy in Buenos Aires. What Mike told me was that it is one thing for a local to do something really low and declare low % and a foreigner. There can be consequences for a foreigner than a local doesn't have. That was what I got out of the consultation. He said that foreigners have higher scrutiny and that is why he explained not to declare so low. He told me he walks away from purchases all the time for his clients because the seller won't declare higher than 65%. So I think that's the difference what people are talking about. Not really just the amount but because you are a foreigner and not a local.

It was so much fun. We spent almost 5 hours and shut down the restaurant until 1:30 AM chatting about real estate and other things. Even people that know Argentina like BowTiedMara was telling us how he bought 4 pozos and they never finished! It's been like 5 years and they stopped and never finished. He thought he was getting a great deal but the project just stalled. I think he posted about that so I hope it's ok if I post about that. But I thought to myself if smart people that know Argentina make mistakes the typical person has no shot.

This is insane! I believe you but it seems insane that someone like Bowtiedmara would be so careless to buy multiple pozos from a no name developer and lose the entire investment. Crazy crazy!

 

[Larry]

what year? what area? with developers or regular Seller individuals? see links above...20-40% is very common here. not sure of how else i can prove that, but i also have no idea why i would spend so much time making something up on a free forum /shrug

20% to 40% is NOT common for a foreigner buying in Argentina. You need your head examined. One thing for an Argentine and another for an American. Two different things.

This is insane! I believe you but it seems insane that someone like Bowtiedmara would be so careless to buy multiple pozos from a no name developer and lose the entire investment. Crazy crazy!

Wow. I thought he knew Argentina. Just goes to show you that even someone that knows Argentina well doesn't. mean they know real estate well. I would never buy pozo here unless it was a big developer. I wonder how much he lost. I wonder why he bought so many like this. Maybe it was a bankruptcy and sometimes they sell properties very cheap but then they never get off the ground. I have a friend that bought one of these and he thought he was getting a good deal. Paid about 30% of the cost of an apartment. That was 10 years ago and the project is still stalled. No thanks.

 

[lemonade]

This is insane! I believe you but it seems insane that someone like Bowtiedmara would be so careless to buy multiple pozos from a no name developer and lose the entire investment. Crazy crazy!

Hot damn!! I thought the guy was some expert on Argentina! But if he bought 4 properties that went bust definitely not trusting him on anything real estate in Argentina!

Thank you @StatusNomadicus! You have the most detailed posts! Wow you must spend hours researching. I love it! That is crazy about that Travelsur board! I read all @earlyretirement's poss from the old forum. Crazy to think about posting for 13 years all for the sake of helping people in Argentina! I never saw him even mention his company once until he got outed by Igor the owner. That says something about posting just to help people!

I don't get it. Why take so much time and post so much stuff? What a time suck!

 

[Jenn]

I doubt this is true that only a few people are declaring 100%. I met a few people that bought in Argentina. There are some Americans here that own in BA. I was surprised with how many foreigners own in BA. They said they did all in white on the up and up.

Also aren't mortgages now a good chunk of the market? I read a lot of articles how mortgages are 25% of the market there now. Those can't be fake prices if banks are involved can they?

Hot damn!! I thought the guy was some expert on Argentina! But if he bought 4 properties that went bust definitely not trusting him on anything real estate in Argentina!


I don't get it. Why take so much time and post so much stuff? What a time suck!

What a wake up call. I even subscribe and pay a subscription fee to his blog. But not sure how I feel about buying properties that went belly up. Can't be an expert on Argentina and get taken for multiple properties. Shocking!

@lemonade what are you complaining about! You are posting questions and people are taking time to answer all for free. I haven't been to Argentina yet. 2 cancelled flights. But I do plan on coming and I learned a lot from this free forum.

 

[Wally]

Yes! That is what Mike did for me when I sold one of my studio apartments at Palermo Uno in 2018. I bought my place from pozo at about $50,000 and I spent about $18,500 furnishing it. Went very high end and IIRC the mattress alone cost $1700 dollars. I hired @BuySellBA to sell my apartment. Mike sold it for $187,000 including all the furniture. Part of the reason I got so much was I was charging $150/night for the place and it was booked solid about 23 days a month year round. Prices have since gone way down but in the beginning there was only mostly Mike's units in the buildings and they were all full.

I sold my apartment furnished but Mike broke out the property so I had $87,000 for the actual apartment and $100,000 in furnishings, artwork and furniture! I had 0% capital gains tax in Argentina as they didn't have any capital gains taxes then. I had to split stamp tax but it was only on the $87,000. I think I paid a little under 2% on the stamp tax. On paper it looked like I only made $37,000 ($87,000 sales price minus $50,000 purchase price). The furniture was in a separate contract. It was all legal too. In the USA I had to pay long term capital gains tax but it was only on the $37,000 because the furniture wasn't in the main title deed.

The best thing is I got $100,000 in cash. Funny to think about! I have a photo somewhere of that closing. I was going down to BA about 3 times a year. That first trip I only took $10k back and left $90k with BuySellBA. The next trip my brother and his wife went down. We each brought back $10k each. It took about 2 years but I got all the cash back.

What an adventure!

That is genius! What a smart way to structure it. And all sounds legal this way. Crazy about leaving so much cash there. That is a lot of trust! It's funny before I moved to Argentina I never dealt with cash. Now all the time. My wife's family owns several businesses so cash is king.

you're usually a voice of reason here, so i'm not sure why you're so aggressive ... i'm simply stating what 11 months, 3 provinces, many many consults with professionals and notaries and realtors, several offers on houses, and 1.5 years of research into Argentine customs, has led me to understand:

Don't take my post wrong. I just don't want people thinking that declaring 40% as a foreigner on property closing is normal. It is not. I know many that buy here. I'm not sure what is normal in Mendoza. I have no clue. Maybe that is normal there but that is not normal here in Buenos Aires. And implying it is normal is wrong. Doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I enjoy your posts.

 

[Blockchain]

Listen to yourselves! Arguing about who is right about declaring the least and cheating on taxes! You gotta love Argentina! 🤣🤣

 

[earlyretirement]

Something I've heard you can do, is if you're buying a furnished place, is effectively move a portion of the the housing onto the cost of the furniture. Not sure what split you can do, but for example you purchase a 100k furnished place and state 60k was for the place and 40k for the furnishing. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I've seen this discussed somewhere before although there might be a limit to the ratio you should use.

Yep. I purchased over 600+properties and sold over 550 of them. Almost every single one I structure like that @FuturoBA to break out furniture/furnishings and "art work" and the actual property to reduce the capital gains tax exposure both here and especially their home countries.

I am going down in 2 weeks with Mike to look at the new land and meet with the developers and architect. I feel fortunate to see the project.

Can't wait for our trip @Johnny! Have a lot of stuff planned. I hope I don't run you ragged like last trip. LOL.

@StatusNomadicus just check out this YouTube channel. Most realtors seem like they are slimy but this has a lot of great information on what prices have done in Buenos Aires the past year. It sounds like in most parts of Recoleta and Palermo prices went up 25% + in many areas.



Sounds like a lot more upside. Your example of Mendoza is why I don't want to buy outside of Buenos Aires and especially Palermo.

A client just sent me that video. He claims that the realtor in it tried to make it sounds like the "Michael" he is working with was me and his client back in 2018. That is NOT true. I have never worked with him. I find it a coincidence that he is using Michael but many realtors try to say they work with me when they don't. Hilarious.

I agree with this. When I was buying my apartment they gave me the same formula. I have never heard of people declaring that low in Buenos Aires. I'm not sure a reputable escribano would even allow that. Maybe things are different in Mendoza @StatusNomadicus. Didn't you feel nervous declaring so low. It's all illegal but there is a difference between doing what the locals are doing and just blatantly breaking the law. 40% would scare me.

My lawyer said the same as what @earlyretirement mentions here.

I'm not sure what is and isn't normal in Mendoza. I can tell you that declaring only 40% is NOT normal in BA with most reputable Escribanos these days. It was way back when I started buying but I didn't do it then either even though there was no capital gains taxes. Remember that what locals do and what foreigner do are two totally different things. There is more scrutiny for foreigners. There have been many period before Milei where foreigners have had everything scrutinized when they sold. They looked how you brought your cash into the country and if it was legal or not, where the source of the funds were, what you declared when you bought it, etc.

Just because Milei doesn't care does NOT mean the next administration will be the same. Remember something, up until Milei foreigners had to get a PERMIT to sell and part of the permitting process was seeing how you brought your cash into the country. Just because it went away doesn't mean that it could change with another administration.

That's why it is foolish to do anything too low or too illegal. It sounds silly distinguishing a little illegal vs. a lot illegal. But I follow the same formula with my clients for 23 years and we have NEVER had issues following that formula. I have had other foreigners that tried to hire me that had serious issues with ARCA/AFIP. It's not good advice to say that no problems using extremely low prices. No reputable Escribano will recommend going so low. Just my advice for others buying.

Again, just because something is one way now doesn't matter. I always say it's not the law when you bought but how it is when you sell and it's cleaner to go as legal as possible.

 

[earlyretirement]

also, for me 99% or 20% was the same moral and legal issue

Nope totally wrong. A huge difference declaring 99% vs. 20%. Not to harp on this but these are huge differences. People that go that low are just begging for problems IMHO. I would venture to guess I have more knowledge of Argentina real estate than anyone in the world and I'm confident I'm the largest buyer of real estate here No way in hell I'd declare that low.

3. "The seller wants to declare the selling price as considerably less than what we are paying or it to save on the 2.5% tax. We hear this is common practice." (2006-2007 discussion of the exact thing i'm saying - and i suspect @earlyretirement is the ApartmentsBA.com user here...what a badass, posting info for free for two decades!!!) http://www.travelsur.net/forum/messages/20/1109.html

Ha. I can't believe that site is still archived. It went down long ago but the owner is still paying hosting charges. I posted on that site a long time ago. I've been posting help and advice just to help people since 1995 when the Internet started. I've been a Moderator on City-Data and other large websites. 90% of the internet are consumers. They only consume knowledge. Only 10% are givers and give data free. I've always been a giver all my life. I love sharing knowledge.