Newcomer Does anyone want to define the true meaning of Peronism?

[GlasgowJohn]

( NOT SURE IF THIS IS THE CORRECT PLACE FOR THIS THREAD. - ADMINS , PLEASE FEEL FREE TO RELOCATE)

I have lived in this great country for 15 years and I am still unable to define what Peronism is and what it does for the people.

Just when I arrived in the country, one of my intellectual friends said , Peronism is a political strategy which brings the best of the Chinese leader Mao and the great Spanish Caudillo Francisco Franco.

That caught me cold as I have never thought that either one was a great political leader.

Did either have good policies – yes without a doubt. But one or two good policies does not make a great political leader.

Do any of you guys , residents or non residents have a definition that means something

Right now, who is the leader of Peronism?

Alberto F? ….. lost somewhere in Spain.

Cristina? … lost somewhere in the Patagonia.

Kicilioff? Nooooooo , oh my god noooooo……

Maximo? – aaaargh ….. I am getting the first flight out

OK Guys and grls , I await your comments with interest.

 

[MickMolloy]

Parasites

Scum

Zurdos

 

[MickMolloy]

Shallow. Today people love Evita because she had blonde hair, a cute nickname (same as Ernesto "che" Guevera and Madonna made a Hollwood movie about her

There was a useful idiot at a Hamas rally in Londonistan a few days ago with a sign saying "support the infitada." When questioned by a reporter what this meant exactly he admitted he didn't know and just bought the sign because it looked good. Peronism is at that level

 

[Avocado]

( NOT SURE IF THIS IS THE CORRECT PLACE FOR THIS THREAD. - ADMINS , PLEASE FEEL FREE TO RELOCATE)

I have lived in this great country for 15 years and I am still unable to define what Peronism is and what it does for the people.

Just when I arrived in the country, one of my intellectual friends said , Peronism is a political strategy which brings the best of the Chinese leader Mao and the great Spanish Caudillo Francisco Franco.

That caught me cold as I have never thought that either one was a great political leader.

Did either have good policies – yes without a doubt. But one or two good policies does not make a great political leader.

Do any of you guys , residents or non residents have a definition that means something

Right now, who is the leader of Peronism?

Alberto F? ….. lost somewhere in Spain.

Cristina? … lost somewhere in the Patagonia.

Kicilioff? Nooooooo , oh my god noooooo……

Maximo? – aaaargh ….. I am getting the first flight out

OK Guys and grls , I await your comments with interest.

Is a good question. I don't know who the leader is. I would say none of the above. But when Milei fails you will see someone step up. I don't think Cristina but the people will gladly take anyone over Milei in a few months when his ideas don't work.

I read this article and saved it. Alberto Fernández gave these answers.

“Really. I’m a social democrat,” the president insisted. “The base of Peronism is the trade unions and the poor, whom we always look after. But we also have the industrialists behind us. They liked General Juan Perón’s protectionism 75 years ago and they like it today. And we have the pope.”

“As always, Perón himself put it best,” Mr Fernández continued. “In 1972 he told a journalist: ‘Look, in Argentina, 30% are Radicals…30% are conservatives and a similar amount Socialists.’ ‘So where are the Peronists?’ asked the journalist. ‘Ah,’ replied Perón, ‘we are all Peronists.’”

“Perhaps we should try this Peronism thing,” mused his host. Slightly alarmed, an aide to the chancellor intervened. “We have done some research,” he said. “And we have read ‘What is Populism?’ by Jan-Werner Müller, a German political scientist. The professor writes that ‘populists claim that they, and they alone, represent the people.’” The aide went on: “Perón said that his movement ‘has ceased to be the cause of one man to become the cause of the people’. He also said ‘true democracy is where the government does what the people want and defends a single interest, that of the people.’”

“Quite,” said Mr Fernández. “That’s why we have no social explosion in Argentina.”

“The first problem,” replied the pesky aide, “is who decides who constitute ‘the people’? Do those who disagree with you belong or not? What is clear to us is that Peronism is a populist way of exercising power, and that’s why you can be both left- and right-wing. Herr Professor also writes that populist governments usually try to hijack the state apparatus, are prone to corruption and practise ‘mass clientelism’. We have seen this in Argentina.”

Faced with such cold Weberian logic, Mr Fernández changed tack. “We are the people who know how to run the state and the economy,” he chipped in. “We are the professionals.” He explained that in 1989 and 2002 Peronists had inherited economic chaos. “And that’s what Macri left me, too,” he complained.

https://econ.st/3Hoco8e

 

[Che Vos]

Parasites

Scum

Zurdos

Why you must be so angry? I don't understand why some of you so angry with people that support. This system help the poor and society. Peronism for many people is for power for people to support and help. Not everything good with Peronism but no system perfect and have some problems. I think if Milei no fix problems this country go back to power for Peronistas forever. They never trust other system. We need wait and see.

 

[Wally]

Opinions vary on what exactly it means. I don't think anyone knows who will take over if Milei fails.

I thought the Wiki definition was interesting.

Peronism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Flamingo]

The pillars of the Peronist ideal, known as the "three flags", are social justice, economic independence, and political sovereignty. Peronism can be described as a third position ideology as it rejects both capitalism and communism.

This is also a good read.

Some elements of Peronist beliefs and tastes - Latin American Economic Review

We study the beliefs and values of Peronism. Instead of a comprehensive approach, we focus on three elements. First, we study beliefs and values about the economic system present in Peron’s speeches during the period 1943–55. Second, given that these beliefs are non‐standard (for economists), we...

latinaer.springeropen.com

 

[Frosted Flakes]

Oxford Reference Definition:

An ill‐defined Argentinian political ideology, also known as justicialismo, which espouses Juan Perón's policies of social justice, economic nationalism, and international non‐alignment. It remained strong within Argentina after Perón's departure in 1955, largely among the trade unions, which cherished the memory of the early years of his presidency. In May 1989, the Peronist Menem was elected President, but his economic programme, including the privatization of state‐owned industries to foreign buyers, betrayed many Peronist principles. Indeed, Menem managed to redefine Peronism as a movement of compromise. It shed its traditional image of a party composed of rowdy trade unionists and led by shady Mafia‐type characters, and moved to attract the political centre ground. Under Eduardo Duhalde, the Peronists lost the 1999 presidential elections, but he became President amidst a deep economic and political crisis in December 2001. Duhalde was succeeded by Néstor Kirchner in 2003, under whom the Peronist Justice Party continued to defend its overwhelming majority in parliament. Kirchner did not stand in 2007, supporting the successful candidacy of his wife, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner.

 

[Swowbird]

Not sure who will take over IF Milei fails but it will be ugly. Kicilioff may be the new golden boy if Milei fails.

 

[Cheap Bastard]

“What is Peronism?”

Speech of 20 August 1948 by Peron:

In Congress a few days ago, some of our legislators have asked what Perónism is. Perónism is humanism in action; Perónism is a new political doctrine, which rejects all the ills of the politics of previous times; in the social sphere it is a theory which establishes a little equal ity among men, which grants them similar opportunities and assures them of a future so that in this land there may be no one who lacks what he needs for a living, even though it may be necessary that those who are wildly squandering what they possess may be deprived of the right to do so, for the benefit of those who have nothing at all; in the economic sphere its aim is that every Argentine should pull his weight for the Argentines and that economic policy which maintained that this was a permanent and perfect school of capitalist exploitation should be replaced by a doctrine of social economy under which the distribution of our wealth, which we force the earth to yield up to us and which furthermore we are elab orating, may be shared out fairly among all those who have contributed by their efforts to amass it.

That is Perónism. And Perónism is not learned, nor just talked about: one feels it or else disagrees. Perónism is a question of the heart rather than of the head. Fortunately I am not one of those Presidents who live a life apart, but on the contrary I live among my people, just as I have always lived; so that I share all the ups and downs, all their successes an all their disappointments with my working class people. I feel an intimate satisfaction when I see a workman who is well dressed or taking his family to the theatre. I feel just as satisfied as I would feel if I were that workman myself. That is Perónism.

One Single Class of Men

I have never been of the opinion that in this world there should be groups of men against other groups, nations against nations and much less can I admit that men should be enemies because they profess a different religion. How could it be admitted, how could it be explained that anti-Semitism should exist in Argentina? In Argentina there should not be more than one single class of men: men who work together for the welfare of the nation, without any discrimination whatever. They are good Argentines, no matter what their origin, their race or their religion may be, if they work every day for the greatness of the Nation, and they are bad Argentines, no matter what they say or how much they shout, if they are not laying a new stone every day towards the construction of the building of the happiness and grandeur of our Nation.

That is the only discrimination which Argentina should make among its inhabitants: those who are doing constructive work and those who are not; those who are benefactors to the country and those who are not. For this reason in this freest land of the free, as long as I am President of the Republic, no one will be persecuted by anyone else.

“The Twenty Truths of the Perónist Justicialism”

From a speech of 17th October 1950 made at the Plaza de Mayo:

1. True democracy is the system where the Government carries out the will of the people defending a single objective: the interests of the people.

2. Perónism is an eminently popular movement. Every political clique is opposed to the popular interests and, therefore, it cannot be a Perónist organization.

3. A Perónist must be at the service of the cause. He who invoking the name of this cause is really at the service of a political clique or a “caudillo” (local political leader) is only a Perónist by name.

4. There is only one class of men for the Perónist cause: the workers.

5. In the New Argentina, work is a right which dignifies man and a duty, because it is only fair that each one should produce at least what he consumes.

6. There can be nothing better for a Perónist than another Perónist.

7. No Perónist should presume to be more than he really is, nor should he adopt a position inferior to what his social status should be. When a Perónist starts to think that he is more important than he really is, he is about to become one of the oligarchy.

8. With reference to political action the scale of values for all Perónists is as follows: First, the Homeland; afterwards the cause, and then, the men themselves.

9. Politics do not constitute for us a definite objective but only a means of achieving the Homeland’s welfare represented by the happiness of the people and the greatness of the nation.

10. The two main branches of Perónism are the Social Justice and the Social Welfare. With these we envelop the people in an embrace of justice and love.

11. Perónism desires the establishment of national unity and the abolition of civil strife. It welcomes heroes but does not want martyrs.

12. In the New Argentina the only privileged ones are the children.

13. A Government without a doctrine is a body without a soul. That is why Perónism has established its own political, economic and social doctrines: Justicialism.

14. Justicialism is a new philosophical school of life. It is simple, practical, popular and endowed with deeply Christian and humanitarian sentiments.

15. As a political doctrine, Justicialism establishes a fair balance between the rights of the individual and those of the community.

16. As an economic doctrine, Justicialism achieves a true form of social economy by placing capital at the service of the national economy and this at the service of social welfare.

17. As a social doctrine, Justicialism presides over an adequate distribution of Social Justice giving to each person the social rights he is entitled to.

18. We want a socially just, an economically free and a politically independent Argentina.

19. We are an organized State and a free people ruled by a centralized government.

20. The best of this land of ours is its people.

 

[llantas]

NEVER rule CFK out. Some people love her.

Peron some say is a genius for making Peronism vague. Because of its near undefinable nature, that it neither sits comfortably on the left, right nor center or because of the number of ideological disperse groups and politicians that call themselves Peronist. Person had an uncanny ability to bring in broad sectors of Argentine society into his political program, broadly against imperialism and for nationalist workers rights and political sovereignty.

Peron called his movement “Justicialism”, a blending of the Spanish words for social justice and this is also the name of the party of CFK. It is an idea founded on Christian social values that has three basic principles: social justice, political sovereignty and economic independence. To do this Peron said his movement was in a “third position” which counterposed itself equally to capitalism and communism. He also aimed to create a social model of an organized community with direct state intervention to mediate between labor and capital. Although not the same as a traditional Scandinavian welfare state, the model has similarities in its mixed economy and a central role for Unions.

The populist program of higher wages and better working conditions, which was actually developed by the Public Works minister Juan Pistarini could well be the classic ideological core of Peronism, but it was always dependent on the structural circumstance of Argentina. For example, in the late 1940s, Peronism was more concerned with the women's vote and the export market, and in the 1990s attempting to rebuild Argentina under a neo-liberal pro market guide.

Indeed, over time it has been an odd mix of socialism, liberalism and populism Peron himself, and therefore the movement became a symbol of and a champion of what he called the “shirtless ones,” (descamisados) appealing to the dispossessed, labor, youth and the poor.

Peronism accepts that the state should coordinate society for the common good and that it can do this without serving class interests.

Peron, and Peronism is hostile to many of the tenets of classic liberalism, although at times concedes such as considering that democratic and republican institutions are the only ones that can guarantee freedom and happiness for the people, and a political opposition is admitted as necessary.

But Peron was also hostile to Marxism, thinking that “forced collectivism” robs individuals of their personality, even though he garnered many supporters from the communist left during the seventies thinking that he, and his ideology would be the only way for Argentina to implement a communist state. Yet Peron thought that class conflict could be transcended by a social collaboration mediated by the state.

It was mostly through this ideological and structural blend that Peron was able to split every party and political formation from the extreme Catholic Right to the Communist Left and line up the dissidents behind his banner. As Carleton Beals wrote, his leading opponents had nothing to offer except to complain of the lack of civil liberties. Their cry for freedom was somewhat suspect, however, as they had never respected it when in office.

It was under Peron that a version of nationalized state capitalism, and an elimination of foreign investors was initiated in Argentina. He used nationalism, unlike his European counterparts, as a weapon of anti-imperialism. Peronism under Peron was Bonapartist in its manipulation of the social classes on behalf of industrializing an underdeveloped country and challenging dominant American imperialism. His style of leadership was one of a leader who took power in a power vacuum when no single class is in the position do so, and using reformist measures to win the radical support of the more populous class.

Peron and Peronism also has to be viewed as a stage in the battle of Latin America for economic independence which is still yet to be achieved with at home the oligarchical structures still intact, and foreign manipulation in the country.

CFK of course called identified as a Peronist and has loosely made connections between herself and Peron's wife, Evita. Some of her bigger ideological and policy choices.

CFK's success serves as a reminder of the remarkable durability and ideologically flexible appeal of the Peronist "brand" in Argentine politics. Nestor Kirchner and Cristina Fernandez's political dominance should be considered part of the trajectory of Peronism. Partly because of the influence on the structure of Argentine society, and the Kirchner's privileging of the lower classes as the key political actors, with the state as mediator as well as their anti-imperialist independence line, the Kirchners fit directly into the Peronist legacy, a legacy that looks like it will never leave Argentina if Milei fails.

Some will always love it and no matter what anyone says about it they can't wait for it to rule again. I don't count CFK out or maybe one of her kids.

 

[StatusNomadicus]

I am still unable to define what Peronism is

Totalitarianism.

that's it!

it's just worship of the State. but, its dictatorial founder just made-up the assertion that it was different than Fascism or Communism (a "Third Way"). it isn't. it's framed as Collectivism, but where the entire premise is that the State is always right...no different than Fascism, and no different than Communism...once the dictator is in control (shortly after each bloody revolution). hear me out! as i shared on the other thread, James Lindsay summarized Fascism in his New Discourses podcast (see References at the end of this). Peronism is just Populist Fascism, which is Totalitarianism/Collectivism. let's analyze Fascism first! Lindsay argues:

"Fascism is actually the bastard son of Communism [...]. It is a reaction to Communism as well, but that's because it's the negation that arises from within it [dialectical]" (James Lindsay, :14::30). Mussolini even said his century was the "Century of the State." most importantly, and parallel to Argentina's Peronism, Mussolini made-up the idea that Fascism (which is Totalitarian where 'nothing outside of the State,') is different than Communism. but James Lindsay around the 10:00 mark argues that both Fascism and Communism ended up fusing into each other into Totalitarianism. similarly, Peron claimed Peronism/Justicialism was different than Fascism, but the end state is...the State. there is no meaningful difference.

"Mussolini's movement was not limited to nationalism and assaults on property. It boiled with the readiness for violent action, anti-intellectualism, rejection of compromise, and contempt for established society" (Paxton 5). in Argentina, "The reality is that Argentinian industry has been captured by unproductive state-owned enterprises and racketeering labor unions under the guise of socialism. This kind of regulatory capture is par for the course as economies trend toward socialism" (Reddit u/coke_and_coffee). Avocado will lie and say that Peronism isn't Collectivism or Totalitarianism (in all its forms - Fascism, Communism, Socialism), yet Peron himself said that Peronism/Justicialism was "socialista nacional" (National Socialist) in ideology, if you watch his interview here:

similarly, in Germany's past and still today in China, we see the ability for a government to say it is a "market" economy, but any company or owner who didn't follow the government's mandates, ended up being seized or shut-down, so it was only the illusion of free-market Capitalism (in the CCP now, and what ESG today is trying to do with BlackRock, Vanguard, WEF, WHO, etc. "Equity and Inclusion" or DEI/DIE). James Lindsay calls this idea a "Potemkin Market."

most crucially for the Fascist link, Peron went to Italy to study the model of Fascism: "Colonel Juan Peron matched [the image of a Fascist jefe] more closely, both in his personal charisma and in his political predilections. On the eve of World War II, as assistant Argentine military attaché in Rome, he had admired the order, the discipline, the unity, and the enthusiasm, as he perceived them, of Fascist Italy. Indeed Peron claimed Italian ancestry, like many Argentines" (Paxton 193).

Peronism can't be defined, even by its followers. there's a reason why this meme is so funny:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/comments/rj0gdn

"A political party with no real ideology that all they care about is doing whatever it takes to get as many votes as they possibly can and then trying to remain in office for as long as they are able to, even if it requires amending the constitution" (Reddit u/nismaneado20150118). and a YouTube comment on an explanatory video is apt: "Peronism is when the government does stuff, and the more stuff it does, the more Peronist it gets, and when the government does a WHOLE lot of stuff, its Kirchnerism" (YouTube @challah4311). why is such a fervently-help belief so un-definable? easy: it takes the form of whatever the ruling elites say it is. that's called Populism messaging, backed by Fascism's power.

it can't be defined because it is just power, maintained by the current dictator/oligarchy.

"early Justicialists (from which Peronism descends or is a part of) and Peron were not subtle about admiring Fascism. They openly espoused corporatism, an ideology pioneered by Mussolini. And that combination of executive power and progressive reforms was similarly seen in European fascists states. Peron himself repeatedly expressed sympathy for European fascists, welcomed them to Argentina after they lost, and condemned the Nuremberg trials, calling them 'a disgrace and an unfortunate lesson for the future of humanity'" (Reddit u/Erusian). Peron loved Mussolini's control, nationalism, youth indoctrination, and military shows of power. "[Juan Peron] nevertheless admired Mussolini especially and had strong personal ties to Nazi Germany (modern-day Peronists still reject these claims). So, Peron was ostensibly a hard-right military man at the beginning of his career, and maintained some level of fascist sympathies for the whole of his life" (Reddit u/HClay77).

youth indoctrination: Soviet Union and Mao did the same: "Hoy, los ferrocarriles y los teléfonos de nuestro país son propiedad del Estado, cumpliéndose así una de nuestras más ardientes aspiraciones. ¡HOY, al General JUAN DOMINGO PERÓN, la ferviente gratitud de todos los argentinos!" (Libros Peronistas). how creepy that entire generations were reading Fascist books; no surprise why the Collectivism contagion still lurks in so many brainwashed minds...propaganda works!

Justicialism/Kirchnerism/Peronism/Fascism/Communism/Socialism/Totalitarianism: "By 1946, General Juan Domingo Perón stood victorious in the elections, ending the first dictatorship (which he had supported) and giving way to the most destabilizing movement for the economy: "Justicialism" (defined by Perón himself as a national -socialism, only as the word "socialism" did not please, it is given the name "Justicialism"), which was basically a popular movement to attract the ignorant masses of that time to a period where the Benefactor State prevailed" (Reddit u/HClay77). and when the USA, in its usual regime-change business-as-usual, tried to stop Peron in 1945, it probably just gave him more credibility with 'the people' of Argentina. the problem with listening to Peron or his followers about what Peronism is, is that since they have to say anything that will perpetuate the State, their words are meaningless. we have to instead look at their actions. "A new 'man' in a new nation - Mussolini's regime made immense efforts to convince Italians that the Fascist state was 'working for the people' (Ferrarini).

"In power, Peron continued to exhibit tendencies that seem contradictory on a left-right axis but all fit in to the larger trend of assuring his power and satisfying his base. In fact, while the term 'populist' gets thrown around a lot these days, Peron fit it better than most, as many of his policies in the economic and social sphere were a way to directly satisfy his working-class base as a way to ensure their continued support of him. And this is the way in which Peron can seem 'socialist' to our eyes, as he enacted sweeping labor protections and social reforms ranging from minimum wage and safety regulations to voting rights for women, etc. And in this context, Peron seems to be a pretty traditional 'socialist' reformer. However, at the same time as all this, Peron continued to make moves towards strengthening his own executive power, in ways that make him look a lot more like a traditional strongman" (Reddit u/HClay77).

Totalitarian leaders always need to change the laws to remain in power, and Peron was no different: "So while he was empowering workers and protecting their rights, he was also doing everything in his power to rule as a dictator, going so far as to change the constitution in 1949 to give himself sweeping presidential powers, which enabled him to run for and win an unprecedented second term in 1952" (Reddit u/HClay77). and, Peron followed Hitler and Mussolini and North Korea, when arguing for leader-worship: "School texts from the period read like an Orwellian horror show, as children would learn grammar by reciting sentences praising Peron or his wife Eva (Evita). Peron’s second term was even more openly dictatorial, and the so-called 'Liberating Revolution' of 1955 (another military coup), was explicitly aimed at shutting down Peronism for good, and forced him into exile" (Reddit u/HClay77).

Summary from r/AskHistorians: "in Peronism we have a movement that has both hard-left and hard-right tendencies, in reflection of a highly complex man. Personally, I think of Peron more as a conservative military strongman than a leftist crusader, as it seems to me that his overtures towards workers were more because they were his avenue to power rather than a genuine interest in the interests of the lower classes. But millions of Argentinians disagree, and the student and union political spheres, especially, are still dominated by Peronist groups (or rather, groups claiming to be Peronist). The contradictions of Peronism, while they have explanations and reasons for being, are still mind-bending contradictions that have to be worked around (or simply paid lip-service to). Maybe the most important legacy of Peronism is that it provided a figurehead for various social and political movements, and that it has given Argentina its defining question of political identity. Just as in the US you’re usually a Democrat or a Republican, or in other parts of the world you’re more left or more right, in Argentina you’re either pro- or anti-Peronist, whatever that means. If you're interested in more, I'd recommend David Rock's Argentina, 1516-1983 or Luis Alberto Romero's A History of Argentina in the Twentieth Century for general overviews. If you want a more in-depth and politically-focused read, go for Federico Finchelstein's The Ideological Origins of the Dirty War, which is a fascinating history of fascism in Argentina. TL;DR: The contradictions in Peronism are a direct result of Peron's actions. It's above all a populist movement, with pro-labor and distinctly authoritarian tendencies" (Reddit u/HClay77).

Peron's "workers" mentioned before, sounds exactly like Communism's proletariat, doesn't it? Peronism, like all Totalitarian ideologies, uses noble-sounding causes to seize power...Peronism, Communism, etc., 'empower' 'workers' as a fixed caste of proletariat, against some perceived evil/boogeyman. today, that evil is Javier Milei, who Peronists are brainwashed to think is a devil against which they, as the Anointed must fight on the Side of the Angels to save humanity (Thomas Sowell). "Peronism has no clear ideology (not even under Perón), it's just a 'the leader is good, obey the leader' kind of herd mentality, and as such Peronists in power can do whatever they like and generally keep the favor of the Peronist majority. Many of their policies tend to be awful and very destructive for the long-term well-being of the country, and they're also pretty much always very corrupt. I grant you, non-Peronist politicians can and have been very corrupt in Argentina too, but only Peronists can be openly corrupt and still be regarded as heroes of the people" (Reddit u/ObiWanTegobi). and, "first of all, the leader is always right so the movement won't take any responsibilities for mistakes done; those within the movement will follow the leader somehow as if it were a religious figure" (Reddit u/Actual_Tomorrow2557).

"Peronism was born as the Nazi Party of Argentina but in the 60s and 70s was progressively 'infiltrated' by communists. (As Perón lived in exile, he used the Communists to undermine the nation and the successive governments to allow him to return. While he had a hatred of communists, he used them but lost control of them. Search for 'Perón echa a los Montoneros de la Plaza' for the climax of this conflict). Economically, Peronism believed (and believes to this day) that the State must handle every aspect of the economy. Whether this be by creating an agency that buys products from exporters at fixed prices and sells them, by nationalizing industries, by establishing price and currency controls, or by granting monopolies to courtesans of the different government officials, the private sector is sidelined and regulated or otherwise sabotaged by the economic planners. Socially, Peronism has seen the greatest mutations. The only real trait that I believe has survived was anti-semitism (Though ironically Perón suported Israel, at least at first). It otherwise started as an extremely conservative, highly catholic, almost reactionary position in the 40s, it eventually started turning into a much more 'progressive' shape that it has now, more on the side of social marxism that is more reminiscent of neo communists, tying them also to their economic and political views, as they are supported by communist parties in Argentina and abroad. (The current government having been part of the 21st century socialism current). Politically, they are populists, or totalitarian. Those terms can be interchangeable in many cases" (Reddit u/FlaviFeels).

Tenets: "The three main tenets of peronism were Social Justice, Economic Independence and Political Sovereignty (soberanía política, independencia económica y justicia social). Social Justice was partially achieved by measures like paid vacations, an additional salary per year or the women vote. But in the other two, little was achieved" (Reddit u/Gogol1212). this is because "Peronism was totalitarian in nature; it is sometimes referred to as Justicialism in Argentina. It has three key legs that define the central values of the state-- social justice, economic independence, and political sovereignty. Rather than the traditional hard left approaches of socialists and communists, they took a more fascist type approach towards economic development and partnerships, espousing a form of corporatism where the state became the arbiter of economic relationships between worker and employer" (Reddit u/ErieHog).

Peron was able to use Evita to claim their oligarchy was going to help the poor masses against the elites, but their rule and the resulting Peronist/Kirchnerist reigns ended up being just like any other elite - seizing power, enriching themselves, and staying in power. their skill was in convincing people like Avocado and CheVos that they were enriching themselves in order to help the masses; a pretty impressive level of propaganda and brainwashing! regarding propaganda: "Peron's dictatorship used police intimidation and controlled the press" (Paxton 196). like every totalitarian regime, the only way to maintain power is through controlling all communication (like how Communist China today has its own censored intranet that the State tells its people is the full Internet).

this affects voting: "Press was so heavily censored by the hand of Raúl 'El Nazi' Apold that you could only print the news if they had been pre-approved by a government censor. Throughout the system of 'Jefes de Manzana' (people who were tasked with keeping an eye on their neighbours to make sure anyone not sufficiently supportive of the regime was neutralized, whether by fear, by tarnishing their reputation, by destroying their businesses or leaving them jobless, or even by eliminating them if need be) the regime managed to ensure that if you weren't one of them, you stayed quiet and afraid. Elections under the first Perón were not too dissimilar to the Anschluss Referendum. 'Vote Perón or else'" (Reddit u/FlaviFeels).

conclusion: if Fascism is "Idolatry of the State" then peronismo must be idolatry of whoever is in charge of the Peronist/Kirchnerist/Whateverist dictator/empire at the time. just like how kirchnerismo can't be defined, since it's as intentionally confusing as Peronism was/is, the next authoritarian leader will use populist politics to use whatever the current social trend is, to rise to as much Executive power as possible (dictatorship/totalitarianism). the followers of the next -ism will be zealots of the religion of the State. Fascism "is not individualistic" but each citizen eventually needs to fuse with the State, so that "you are not you anymore," you are a component of the State, and must toil/struggle perpetually for the nationalistic and populist 'goals' of the dictator/politburo (Lindsay :57::30). this is why Lindsay says the State becomes an idol to be worshipped. thus, Peronism, like Fascism, is "a religion of the Fascist State" that focuses on a perpetual (perceived) struggle" (Lindsay).

"The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing. It's the idol. [...] Outside of the State, no human or spiritual values can exist [...], much less have value. [...] Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian. [...] [Fascism] potentiates the whole life of a people." (Lindsay, quoting Mussolini. 1:07::30). if you play the game, just like mentioned before in the Soviet Union and now in Communist China, you can be part of the Kirchner/Peronism racket where you loot the wealth of Argentina while singing praises to equity and worker rights. if you don't toe the line when commanded, you will be thrown-out. in the end, it's an oligarchy/dictatorship of the political elite, or nepotism of the current family/group in charge. it should be painfully obvious that the 'poor' face of Peronism, Evita, ended up looting the wealth of the nation and spending absurd amounts of money on her decadence and pet projects, just like any other corrupt dictatorship. yet, Avocado/CheVos will worship her to their death, no matter if a video surfaced someday of Evita admitting she was intentionally looting the country. it wouldn't matter; she's a Saint, at the core of the religion of Peronism/Fascism. to criticize Evita is to pull the foundation out of the entire worldview that they've been brainwashed their whole lives to believe.

current events: related to all of this, Peronists will blame Macri for everything! which is perfect...because Macri didn't de-regulate fully, and actually increased public spending and debt; the opposite of what needed to happen to bring Argentina out of the third-world it's been mired in. see:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1730398975792906315

and

https://twitter.com/x/status/1740188445828603958

so those who say Milei is just Macri's minion, it's sad that their tribalism rejects all evidence and logic; Milei already did more in his first hour than Macri (and Trump in the USA) did in his whole presidency. spending less and getting out of debt is the main goal, accomplished by de-regulation and allowing the free exchange of goods/services/ideas. this is terrifying to any Authoritarian, because it essentially takes away all the perks of being in control; enriching one's oligarchic group while in power, and then staying in power at all costs. "A Totalitarian State that does whatever it has to do to maintain power" (Lindsay 1:49::00).

Orwell: "The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just around the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power" (Orwell's 1984).

you could add Peronism to that description, and say 'the Peronists believed their dictator seized power for a limited time, with the intention of relinquishing it, and just around the corner there is a paradise where Argentines would be free and equal' and it would fit pretty perfectly. Lindsay argues that since the 1960s-1970s, Communism and Fascism synthesized into a single conception: State power that maintains its power however it can. "Fascism can produce, sort of, but it can't make people happy. [...] It's Fascism for the corporate universe, and it's Communism for the people [...]. That's the new model. This program doesn't actually work; it works better than Communism, but it doesn't work" (Lindsay 1:13:00).

CheVos and Avocado as the annoying Peronist zealots in this Expat forum will undoubtedly say 'that's not what Peronism is, you've only been here 2 months and you don't know anything about Argentina' -or some other attack on the author and not the ideas, but in the end, even they won't be able to give anything other than a vague Wikipedia-style sentence of 'Peronism is a unique political stance in Argentina that has roots in Fascist Italy, and favors [insert current Populist topic, like Workers' Rights here]' ... this is because Peronism is just what the current party leaders say it is, when they pander to the current zeitgeist of the majority (the definition of Populism). whatever 'free stuff' the government can 'give' is called Peronism/Kirchnerism, but there are no actual principles other than maintaining as much political power as possible. in the USA, Woke-ism is sort of a totalitarian cancel-culture version of this. as @Cheap Bastard mentioned before, "The Twenty Truths of the Perónist Justicialism [...] There is only one class of men for the Peronist cause: the workers" (Peron, 1950). if those times had some other popular movement, Peron would have capitalized on it, to gain power.

similarly, using the DEI zeitgeist, Nestor Kirchner in 2006 exclaimed: "we have taken 1,562,000 people out of poverty in one year and 562,000 have been lifted from indigence. Minimum salary in Argentina went from 200 pesos to 830, in other words, it experienced a 400 percent increase and the economy did not suffer at all. The number of people that retired from the lower end of the scale, had an increase of 270 percent and we are now recovering those retired persons that are in the higher end of the scale. Evidently, all of this goes to consumption, an area in which there is a full recovery and which has not experienced any alteration either. It is fundamental for us to strike a balance between economic growth and equity and justice" (Nestor Kirchner, 2006). this is hilarious to read, when Nestor was the one that made crazy price controls, published fake inflation numbers, and oversaw one of the worst periods in Argentine economic history. but, it's all forgiven by Peronists, because he did it while saying it was for equity and workers, and something-something Democracy!

in real life, if it quacks like a duck, it's Totalitarian Collectivism, where the Fascist State is at the core of everything, and it maintains its power at all costs. it must use dictatorial power to manipulate the media and keep the masses appeased, just like any corrupt emperor of Rome did, and what Hitler did, what Musolini did, what the USSR did, and what China is currently doing. of course, because they are brainwashed from childhood books (Libros Peronistas) onward to State media, the supporters Avocado/CheVos will find mental-gymnastics ways to say it is Democracy, but authoritarianism is authoritarianism, whether it's your 'guy' in power, or the other 'side.' just like any other religious cult/ideology, the messaging appeals to lower-class people who feel the next election will solve all their life problems, and the psychopathic State authoritarians are happy to capitalize on this. even today in the USA for 2024 we see the messaging: "Democracy is at stake/on the ballot" etc., when both Trump and Biden are the same Uniparty 80-year-old creepers that have done nothing but perpetuate the welfare-warfare state. but we swear this time will be different! for Peronists, they're just extra dumb, because even with 70+ years in power there still aren't public restrooms in Buenos Aires, and poverty is at 50%, but somehow the Peronists will never admit that their favorite oligarchs are to blame for massive spending and corruption.

some Peronists will claim that they are united under "anti-imperialism" and "anti-colonialism" but there isn't any consistent evidence of that, nor do the elites who seize power do any of that, other than via meaningless propaganda. to sum-up, if Peronism is all about workers' rights and equity, why did this political plan result in massive poverty and horrifying conditions for the lower/working class? and most importantly for Kirchnerists/Peronists, how is Peronism any different than Fascism, and was there anything the State wouldn't do to maintain power, historically? i look forward to the Peronists' responses to this research, because obviously they won't read any of this, and like all ideological drones, they will repeat the propaganda they've been taught. this is pretty depressing, because not even with the implosion of the Argentine economy, the religious cultists will never self-cure their Stockholm Syndrome; how more depressing it is also to read Mussolini: "Never before have the peoples thirsted for authority, direction, order, as they do now" - looks like not much has changed in CABA, unfortunately.


References
1. James Lindsay, New Discourses, "Fascism: Idolatry of the State," 08 January 2024 podcast,

2. Robert Paxton, The Anatomy of Fascism, https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Anatomy_of_Fascism/JU3th4LnKvsC
3. Fabio Ferrarini, https://www.sv.uio.no/c-rex/english/news-and-events/right-now/2023/when-fascism-became-populist.html
4. Juan Peron, https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/mod/1950peronism2.asp
5. Benito Mussolini and Giovanni Gentile, The Doctrine of Fascism (1932), https://www.wm.edu/offices/auxiliary/osher/course-info/classnotes/thedoctrineoffascismedited.pdf
6. u/HClay77, AskHistorians on Reddit, https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistori...racterized_peronism_was_it_socialist/e3rrusf/
7. u/ObiWanTegobi, Reddit #2, https://www.reddit.com/r/argentina/comments/f644ra/why_do_so_many_people_hate_peronism/fi2n31p/
8. u/FlaviFeels, Reddit #3, https://www.reddit.com/r/argentina/comments/f644ra/why_do_so_many_people_hate_peronism/fi31rk8/
9. u/Gogol1212, Reddit #4, https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/iluwa6/what_do_you_think_about_peronism/g3uyz5k/
10. u/Actual_Tomorrow2557 and u/nismaneado20150118, Reddit #5, https://www.reddit.com/r/argentina/comments/180b7ws/what_is_peronism/ka4tkyk/
11. u/ErieHog, Reddit#6, https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlik...5_the_political_movement_of_peronism/dnqnng6/
12. u/coke_and_coffee, Reddit#7, https://www.reddit.com/r/Capitalism...at_were_the_material_conditions_that/kalq3pr/
13. Libros Peronistas, https://librosperonistas.com/

 

[McDonald]

Totalitarianism.

that's it!

it's just worship of the State. but, its dictatorial founder just made-up the assertion that it was different than Fascism or Communism (a "Third Way"). it isn't. it's framed as Collectivism, but where the entire premise is that the State is always right...no different than Fascism, and no different than Communism...once the dictator is in control (shortly after each bloody revolution). hear me out! as i shared on the other thread, James Lindsay summarized Fascism in his New Discourses podcast (see References at the end of this). Peronism is just Populist Fascism, which is Totalitarianism/Collectivism. let's analyze Fascism first! Lindsay argues:

"Fascism is actually the bastard son of Communism [...]. It is a reaction to Communism as well, but that's because it's the negation that arises from within it [dialectical]" (James Lindsay, :14::30). Mussolini even said his century was the "Century of the State." most importantly, and parallel to Argentina's Peronism, Mussolini made-up the idea that Fascism (which is Totalitarian where 'nothing outside of the State,') is different than Communism. but James Lindsay around the 10:00 mark argues that both Fascism and Communism ended up fusing into each other into Totalitarianism. similarly, Peron claimed Peronism/Justicialism was different than Fascism, but the end state is...the State. there is no meaningful difference.

"Mussolini's movement was not limited to nationalism and assaults on property. It boiled with the readiness for violent action, anti-intellectualism, rejection of compromise, and contempt for established society" (Paxton 5). in Argentina, "The reality is that Argentinian industry has been captured by unproductive state-owned enterprises and racketeering labor unions under the guise of socialism. This kind of regulatory capture is par for the course as economies trend toward socialism" (Reddit u/coke_and_coffee). Avocado will lie and say that Peronism isn't Collectivism or Totalitarianism (in all its forms - Fascism, Communism, Socialism), yet Peron himself said that Peronism/Justicialism was "socialista nacional" (National Socialist) in ideology, if you watch his interview here:

similarly, in Germany's past and still today in China, we see the ability for a government to say it is a "market" economy, but any company or owner who didn't follow the government's mandates, ended up being seized or shut-down, so it was only the illusion of free-market Capitalism (in the CCP now, and what ESG today is trying to do with BlackRock, Vanguard, WEF, WHO, etc. "Equity and Inclusion" or DEI/DIE). James Lindsay calls this idea a "Potemkin Market."

most crucially for the Fascist link, Peron went to Italy to study the model of Fascism: "Colonel Juan Peron matched [the image of a Fascist jefe] more closely, both in his personal charisma and in his political predilections. On the eve of World War II, as assistant Argentine military attaché in Rome, he had admired the order, the discipline, the unity, and the enthusiasm, as he perceived them, of Fascist Italy. Indeed Peron claimed Italian ancestry, like many Argentines" (Paxton 193).

Peronism can't be defined, even by its followers. there's a reason why this meme is so funny:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/comments/rj0gdn

"A political party with no real ideology that all they care about is doing whatever it takes to get as many votes as they possibly can and then trying to remain in office for as long as they are able to, even if it requires amending the constitution" (Reddit u/nismaneado20150118). and a YouTube comment on an explanatory video is apt: "Peronism is when the government does stuff, and the more stuff it does, the more Peronist it gets, and when the government does a WHOLE lot of stuff, its Kirchnerism" (YouTube @challah4311). why is such a fervently-help belief so un-definable? easy: it takes the form of whatever the ruling elites say it is. that's called Populism messaging, backed by Fascism's power.

it can't be defined because it is just power, maintained by the current dictator/oligarchy.

"early Justicialists (from which Peronism descends or is a part of) and Peron were not subtle about admiring Fascism. They openly espoused corporatism, an ideology pioneered by Mussolini. And that combination of executive power and progressive reforms was similarly seen in European fascists states. Peron himself repeatedly expressed sympathy for European fascists, welcomed them to Argentina after they lost, and condemned the Nuremberg trials, calling them 'a disgrace and an unfortunate lesson for the future of humanity'" (Reddit u/Erusian). Peron loved Mussolini's control, nationalism, youth indoctrination, and military shows of power. "[Juan Peron] nevertheless admired Mussolini especially and had strong personal ties to Nazi Germany (modern-day Peronists still reject these claims). So, Peron was ostensibly a hard-right military man at the beginning of his career, and maintained some level of fascist sympathies for the whole of his life" (Reddit u/HClay77).

youth indoctrination: Soviet Union and Mao did the same: "Hoy, los ferrocarriles y los teléfonos de nuestro país son propiedad del Estado, cumpliéndose así una de nuestras más ardientes aspiraciones. ¡HOY, al General JUAN DOMINGO PERÓN, la ferviente gratitud de todos los argentinos!" (Libros Peronistas). how creepy that entire generations were reading Fascist books; no surprise why the Collectivism contagion still lurks in so many brainwashed minds...propaganda works!

Justicialism/Kirchnerism/Peronism/Fascism/Communism/Socialism/Totalitarianism: "By 1946, General Juan Domingo Perón stood victorious in the elections, ending the first dictatorship (which he had supported) and giving way to the most destabilizing movement for the economy: "Justicialism" (defined by Perón himself as a national -socialism, only as the word "socialism" did not please, it is given the name "Justicialism"), which was basically a popular movement to attract the ignorant masses of that time to a period where the Benefactor State prevailed" (Reddit u/HClay77). and when the USA, in its usual regime-change business-as-usual, tried to stop Peron in 1945, it probably just gave him more credibility with 'the people' of Argentina. the problem with listening to Peron or his followers about what Peronism is, is that since they have to say anything that will perpetuate the State, their words are meaningless. we have to instead look at their actions. "A new 'man' in a new nation - Mussolini's regime made immense efforts to convince Italians that the Fascist state was 'working for the people' (Ferrarini).

"In power, Peron continued to exhibit tendencies that seem contradictory on a left-right axis but all fit in to the larger trend of assuring his power and satisfying his base. In fact, while the term 'populist' gets thrown around a lot these days, Peron fit it better than most, as many of his policies in the economic and social sphere were a way to directly satisfy his working-class base as a way to ensure their continued support of him. And this is the way in which Peron can seem 'socialist' to our eyes, as he enacted sweeping labor protections and social reforms ranging from minimum wage and safety regulations to voting rights for women, etc. And in this context, Peron seems to be a pretty traditional 'socialist' reformer. However, at the same time as all this, Peron continued to make moves towards strengthening his own executive power, in ways that make him look a lot more like a traditional strongman" (Reddit u/HClay77).

Totalitarian leaders always need to change the laws to remain in power, and Peron was no different: "So while he was empowering workers and protecting their rights, he was also doing everything in his power to rule as a dictator, going so far as to change the constitution in 1949 to give himself sweeping presidential powers, which enabled him to run for and win an unprecedented second term in 1952" (Reddit u/HClay77). and, Peron followed Hitler and Mussolini and North Korea, when arguing for leader-worship: "School texts from the period read like an Orwellian horror show, as children would learn grammar by reciting sentences praising Peron or his wife Eva (Evita). Peron’s second term was even more openly dictatorial, and the so-called 'Liberating Revolution' of 1955 (another military coup), was explicitly aimed at shutting down Peronism for good, and forced him into exile" (Reddit u/HClay77).

Summary from r/AskHistorians: "in Peronism we have a movement that has both hard-left and hard-right tendencies, in reflection of a highly complex man. Personally, I think of Peron more as a conservative military strongman than a leftist crusader, as it seems to me that his overtures towards workers were more because they were his avenue to power rather than a genuine interest in the interests of the lower classes. But millions of Argentinians disagree, and the student and union political spheres, especially, are still dominated by Peronist groups (or rather, groups claiming to be Peronist). The contradictions of Peronism, while they have explanations and reasons for being, are still mind-bending contradictions that have to be worked around (or simply paid lip-service to). Maybe the most important legacy of Peronism is that it provided a figurehead for various social and political movements, and that it has given Argentina its defining question of political identity. Just as in the US you’re usually a Democrat or a Republican, or in other parts of the world you’re more left or more right, in Argentina you’re either pro- or anti-Peronist, whatever that means. If you're interested in more, I'd recommend David Rock's Argentina, 1516-1983 or Luis Alberto Romero's A History of Argentina in the Twentieth Century for general overviews. If you want a more in-depth and politically-focused read, go for Federico Finchelstein's The Ideological Origins of the Dirty War, which is a fascinating history of fascism in Argentina. TL;DR: The contradictions in Peronism are a direct result of Peron's actions. It's above all a populist movement, with pro-labor and distinctly authoritarian tendencies" (Reddit u/HClay77).

Peron's "workers" mentioned before, sounds exactly like Communism's proletariat, doesn't it? Peronism, like all Totalitarian ideologies, uses noble-sounding causes to seize power...Peronism, Communism, etc., 'empower' 'workers' as a fixed caste of proletariat, against some perceived evil/boogeyman. today, that evil is Javier Milei, who Peronists are brainwashed to think is a devil against which they, as the Anointed must fight on the Side of the Angels to save humanity (Thomas Sowell). "Peronism has no clear ideology (not even under Perón), it's just a 'the leader is good, obey the leader' kind of herd mentality, and as such Peronists in power can do whatever they like and generally keep the favor of the Peronist majority. Many of their policies tend to be awful and very destructive for the long-term well-being of the country, and they're also pretty much always very corrupt. I grant you, non-Peronist politicians can and have been very corrupt in Argentina too, but only Peronists can be openly corrupt and still be regarded as heroes of the people" (Reddit u/ObiWanTegobi). and, "first of all, the leader is always right so the movement won't take any responsibilities for mistakes done; those within the movement will follow the leader somehow as if it were a religious figure" (Reddit u/Actual_Tomorrow2557).

"Peronism was born as the Nazi Party of Argentina but in the 60s and 70s was progressively 'infiltrated' by communists. (As Perón lived in exile, he used the Communists to undermine the nation and the successive governments to allow him to return. While he had a hatred of communists, he used them but lost control of them. Search for 'Perón echa a los Montoneros de la Plaza' for the climax of this conflict). Economically, Peronism believed (and believes to this day) that the State must handle every aspect of the economy. Whether this be by creating an agency that buys products from exporters at fixed prices and sells them, by nationalizing industries, by establishing price and currency controls, or by granting monopolies to courtesans of the different government officials, the private sector is sidelined and regulated or otherwise sabotaged by the economic planners. Socially, Peronism has seen the greatest mutations. The only real trait that I believe has survived was anti-semitism (Though ironically Perón suported Israel, at least at first). It otherwise started as an extremely conservative, highly catholic, almost reactionary position in the 40s, it eventually started turning into a much more 'progressive' shape that it has now, more on the side of social marxism that is more reminiscent of neo communists, tying them also to their economic and political views, as they are supported by communist parties in Argentina and abroad. (The current government having been part of the 21st century socialism current). Politically, they are populists, or totalitarian. Those terms can be interchangeable in many cases" (Reddit u/FlaviFeels).

Tenets: "The three main tenets of peronism were Social Justice, Economic Independence and Political Sovereignty (soberanía política, independencia económica y justicia social). Social Justice was partially achieved by measures like paid vacations, an additional salary per year or the women vote. But in the other two, little was achieved" (Reddit u/Gogol1212). this is because "Peronism was totalitarian in nature; it is sometimes referred to as Justicialism in Argentina. It has three key legs that define the central values of the state-- social justice, economic independence, and political sovereignty. Rather than the traditional hard left approaches of socialists and communists, they took a more fascist type approach towards economic development and partnerships, espousing a form of corporatism where the state became the arbiter of economic relationships between worker and employer" (Reddit u/ErieHog).

Peron was able to use Evita to claim their oligarchy was going to help the poor masses against the elites, but their rule and the resulting Peronist/Kirchnerist reigns ended up being just like any other elite - seizing power, enriching themselves, and staying in power. their skill was in convincing people like Avocado and CheVos that they were enriching themselves in order to help the masses; a pretty impressive level of propaganda and brainwashing! regarding propaganda: "Peron's dictatorship used police intimidation and controlled the press" (Paxton 196). like every totalitarian regime, the only way to maintain power is through controlling all communication (like how Communist China today has its own censored intranet that the State tells its people is the full Internet).

this affects voting: "Press was so heavily censored by the hand of Raúl 'El Nazi' Apold that you could only print the news if they had been pre-approved by a government censor. Throughout the system of 'Jefes de Manzana' (people who were tasked with keeping an eye on their neighbours to make sure anyone not sufficiently supportive of the regime was neutralized, whether by fear, by tarnishing their reputation, by destroying their businesses or leaving them jobless, or even by eliminating them if need be) the regime managed to ensure that if you weren't one of them, you stayed quiet and afraid. Elections under the first Perón were not too dissimilar to the Anschluss Referendum. 'Vote Perón or else'" (Reddit u/FlaviFeels).

conclusion: if Fascism is "Idolatry of the State" then peronismo must be idolatry of whoever is in charge of the Peronist/Kirchnerist/Whateverist dictator/empire at the time. just like how kirchnerismo can't be defined, since it's as intentionally confusing as Peronism was/is, the next authoritarian leader will use populist politics to use whatever the current social trend is, to rise to as much Executive power as possible (dictatorship/totalitarianism). the followers of the next -ism will be zealots of the religion of the State. Fascism "is not individualistic" but each citizen eventually needs to fuse with the State, so that "you are not you anymore," you are a component of the State, and must toil/struggle perpetually for the nationalistic and populist 'goals' of the dictator/politburo (Lindsay :57::30). this is why Lindsay says the State becomes an idol to be worshipped. thus, Peronism, like Fascism, is "a religion of the Fascist State" that focuses on a perpetual (perceived) struggle" (Lindsay).

"The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing. It's the idol. [...] Outside of the State, no human or spiritual values can exist [...], much less have value. [...] Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian. [...] [Fascism] potentiates the whole life of a people." (Lindsay, quoting Mussolini. 1:07::30). if you play the game, just like mentioned before in the Soviet Union and now in Communist China, you can be part of the Kirchner/Peronism racket where you loot the wealth of Argentina while singing praises to equity and worker rights. if you don't toe the line when commanded, you will be thrown-out. in the end, it's an oligarchy/dictatorship of the political elite, or nepotism of the current family/group in charge. it should be painfully obvious that the 'poor' face of Peronism, Evita, ended up looting the wealth of the nation and spending absurd amounts of money on her decadence and pet projects, just like any other corrupt dictatorship. yet, Avocado/CheVos will worship her to their death, no matter if a video surfaced someday of Evita admitting she was intentionally looting the country. it wouldn't matter; she's a Saint, at the core of the religion of Peronism/Fascism. to criticize Evita is to pull the foundation out of the entire worldview that they've been brainwashed their whole lives to believe.

current events: related to all of this, Peronists will blame Macri for everything! which is perfect...because Macri didn't de-regulate fully, and actually increased public spending and debt; the opposite of what needed to happen to bring Argentina out of the third-world it's been mired in. see:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1730398975792906315

and

https://twitter.com/x/status/1740188445828603958

so those who say Milei is just Macri's minion, it's sad that their tribalism rejects all evidence and logic; Milei already did more in his first hour than Macri (and Trump in the USA) did in his whole presidency. spending less and getting out of debt is the main goal, accomplished by de-regulation and allowing the free exchange of goods/services/ideas. this is terrifying to any Authoritarian, because it essentially takes away all the perks of being in control; enriching one's oligarchic group while in power, and then staying in power at all costs. "A Totalitarian State that does whatever it has to do to maintain power" (Lindsay 1:49::00).

Orwell: "The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just around the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power" (Orwell's 1984).

you could add Peronism to that description, and say 'the Peronists believed their dictator seized power for a limited time, with the intention of relinquishing it, and just around the corner there is a paradise where Argentines would be free and equal' and it would fit pretty perfectly. Lindsay argues that since the 1960s-1970s, Communism and Fascism synthesized into a single conception: State power that maintains its power however it can. "Fascism can produce, sort of, but it can't make people happy. [...] It's Fascism for the corporate universe, and it's Communism for the people [...]. That's the new model. This program doesn't actually work; it works better than Communism, but it doesn't work" (Lindsay 1:13:00).

CheVos and Avocado as the annoying Peronist zealots in this Expat forum will undoubtedly say 'that's not what Peronism is, you've only been here 2 months and you don't know anything about Argentina' -or some other attack on the author and not the ideas, but in the end, even they won't be able to give anything other than a vague Wikipedia-style sentence of 'Peronism is a unique political stance in Argentina that has roots in Fascist Italy, and favors [insert current Populist topic, like Workers' Rights here]' ... this is because Peronism is just what the current party leaders say it is, when they pander to the current zeitgeist of the majority (the definition of Populism). whatever 'free stuff' the government can 'give' is called Peronism/Kirchnerism, but there are no actual principles other than maintaining as much political power as possible. in the USA, Woke-ism is sort of a totalitarian cancel-culture version of this. as @Cheap Bastard mentioned before, "The Twenty Truths of the Perónist Justicialism [...] There is only one class of men for the Peronist cause: the workers" (Peron, 1950). if those times had some other popular movement, Peron would have capitalized on it, to gain power.

similarly, using the DEI zeitgeist, Nestor Kirchner in 2006 exclaimed: "we have taken 1,562,000 people out of poverty in one year and 562,000 have been lifted from indigence. Minimum salary in Argentina went from 200 pesos to 830, in other words, it experienced a 400 percent increase and the economy did not suffer at all. The number of people that retired from the lower end of the scale, had an increase of 270 percent and we are now recovering those retired persons that are in the higher end of the scale. Evidently, all of this goes to consumption, an area in which there is a full recovery and which has not experienced any alteration either. It is fundamental for us to strike a balance between economic growth and equity and justice" (Nestor Kirchner, 2006). this is hilarious to read, when Nestor was the one that made crazy price controls, published fake inflation numbers, and oversaw one of the worst periods in Argentine economic history. but, it's all forgiven by Peronists, because he did it while saying it was for equity and workers, and something-something Democracy!

in real life, if it quacks like a duck, it's Totalitarian Collectivism, where the Fascist State is at the core of everything, and it maintains its power at all costs. it must use dictatorial power to manipulate the media and keep the masses appeased, just like any corrupt emperor of Rome did, and what Hitler did, what Musolini did, what the USSR did, and what China is currently doing. of course, because they are brainwashed from childhood books (Libros Peronistas) onward to State media, the supporters Avocado/CheVos will find mental-gymnastics ways to say it is Democracy, but authoritarianism is authoritarianism, whether it's your 'guy' in power, or the other 'side.' just like any other religious cult/ideology, the messaging appeals to lower-class people who feel the next election will solve all their life problems, and the psychopathic State authoritarians are happy to capitalize on this. even today in the USA for 2024 we see the messaging: "Democracy is at stake/on the ballot" etc., when both Trump and Biden are the same Uniparty 80-year-old creepers that have done nothing but perpetuate the welfare-warfare state. but we swear this time will be different! for Peronists, they're just extra dumb, because even with 70+ years in power there still aren't public restrooms in Buenos Aires, and poverty is at 50%, but somehow the Peronists will never admit that their favorite oligarchs are to blame for massive spending and corruption.

some Peronists will claim that they are united under "anti-imperialism" and "anti-colonialism" but there isn't any consistent evidence of that, nor do the elites who seize power do any of that, other than via meaningless propaganda. to sum-up, if Peronism is all about workers' rights and equity, why did this political plan result in massive poverty and horrifying conditions for the lower/working class? and most importantly for Kirchnerists/Peronists, how is Peronism any different than Fascism, and was there anything the State wouldn't do to maintain power, historically? i look forward to the Peronists' responses to this research, because obviously they won't read any of this, and like all ideological drones, they will repeat the propaganda they've been taught. this is pretty depressing, because not even with the implosion of the Argentine economy, the religious cultists will never self-cure their Stockholm Syndrome; how more depressing it is also to read Mussolini: "Never before have the peoples thirsted for authority, direction, order, as they do now" - looks like not much has changed in CABA, unfortunately.


References
1. James Lindsay, New Discourses, "Fascism: Idolatry of the State," 08 January 2024 podcast,

2. Robert Paxton, The Anatomy of Fascism, https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Anatomy_of_Fascism/JU3th4LnKvsC
3. Fabio Ferrarini, https://www.sv.uio.no/c-rex/english/news-and-events/right-now/2023/when-fascism-became-populist.html
4. Juan Peron, https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/mod/1950peronism2.asp
5. Benito Mussolini and Giovanni Gentile, The Doctrine of Fascism (1932), https://www.wm.edu/offices/auxiliary/osher/course-info/classnotes/thedoctrineoffascismedited.pdf
6. u/HClay77, AskHistorians on Reddit, https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistori...racterized_peronism_was_it_socialist/e3rrusf/
7. u/ObiWanTegobi, Reddit #2, https://www.reddit.com/r/argentina/comments/f644ra/why_do_so_many_people_hate_peronism/fi2n31p/
8. u/FlaviFeels, Reddit #3, https://www.reddit.com/r/argentina/comments/f644ra/why_do_so_many_people_hate_peronism/fi31rk8/
9. u/Gogol1212, Reddit #4, https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateCommunism/comments/iluwa6/what_do_you_think_about_peronism/g3uyz5k/
10. u/Actual_Tomorrow2557 and u/nismaneado20150118, Reddit #5, https://www.reddit.com/r/argentina/comments/180b7ws/what_is_peronism/ka4tkyk/
11. u/ErieHog, Reddit#6, https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlik...5_the_political_movement_of_peronism/dnqnng6/
12. u/coke_and_coffee, Reddit#7, https://www.reddit.com/r/Capitalism...at_were_the_material_conditions_that/kalq3pr/
13. Libros Peronistas, https://librosperonistas.com/

Thank you. I feel smarter after reading your post. Ha. One thing is for sure. If Milei fails it's going straight to CFK again.

 

[VINO]

Judging from this thread (and chats with friends) if you're pro Peronism it means something very good. If you're against it, it means something very bad.